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7 years ago  ::  May 31, 2008 - 1:29AM #161
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,804
[QUOTE=ozero;530564].
I hate doing this but I'm going to anyway.

Mathew 25:
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

***
There is no evidence that the people saved had a clue about who Jesus was.  They apparently didn't know this quote from the bible.  There is evidence that the people who were not saved did believe in Jesus.   That didn't save them. 
Iama, very few quotes you posted were of Jesus himself and none of those put faith above charity.  You like to take what Jesus said as metaphor, rather than inerrant truth, and yet take the creation myth as truth, not metaphor.   You don't like what Jesus said, so you downplay him.  You are working for the antichrist.  Actually read those posts you made.  The only reason Jesus wanted people to believe him was to follow his advice, to act - not just believe.  Even the other writers made that point.  That is not the fundamentalist attitude, they want salvation without doing anything.  It's not what Jesus said.  Think.
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[/QUOTE]

Ozero, Matthew 25:31-46 is what happens subsequent to King Christ Jesus Second Coming ; He is speaking from His "glorious throne" where He will rule:

1. "all the nations" literally means "all the Gentiles"
2. This is the judgment of those Gentiles who survive the tribulation and whose heart relation to God is evidenced by their treatment of the Jews (Christ's brethren v. 40), especially during the tribulation time.
3. The Christian-Church - Body of Christ - will have been Raptured - taken up to heaven prior to the Tribulation.
4. The Gentile nations will be judged with respect to their treatment of the Jews during the 7 year period - the last 7 years of Daniel's prophecy.

Gen 12:1-3
"Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."




.
The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
.
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
.
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6 years ago  ::  May 31, 2008 - 8:06AM #162
ozero
Posts: 1,411
IAMA: "
1. "all the nations" literally means "all the Gentiles"
2. This is the judgment of those Gentiles who survive the tribulation and whose heart relation to God is evidenced by their treatment of the Jews (Christ's brethren v. 40), especially during the tribulation time.
3. The Christian-Church - Body of Christ - will have been Raptured - taken up to heaven prior to the Tribulation.
4. The Gentile nations will be judged with respect to their treatment of the Jews during the 7 year period - the last 7 years of Daniel's prophecy."

You realize, of course, that not one thing you posted there is in the bible, don't you?  You like things taken literally - as long as it conforms to your thinking and, if it doesn't, then rewrite it.  Very good.   You're still working for the antichrist.  Take a look at what the bible says about people who intentionally try to rewrite the bible to fit their own whims.  Your thinking is becoming more clear to me.  I disagree with your aims - sucking up to the devil - but understand it.  It is one way to handle the uncertainty of eternity.
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6 years ago  ::  May 31, 2008 - 1:00PM #163
exploringinside
Posts: 1,294
[QUOTE=ozero;534786]IAMA: "
1. "all the nations" literally means "all the Gentiles"
2. This is the judgment of those Gentiles who survive the tribulation and whose heart relation to God is evidenced by their treatment of the Jews (Christ's brethren v. 40), especially during the tribulation time.
3. The Christian-Church - Body of Christ - will have been Raptured - taken up to heaven prior to the Tribulation.
4. The Gentile nations will be judged with respect to their treatment of the Jews during the 7 year period - the last 7 years of Daniel's prophecy."

You realize, of course, that not one thing you posted there is in the bible, don't you?  You like things taken literally - as long as it conforms to your thinking and, if it doesn't, then rewrite it.  Very good.   You're still working for the antichrist.  Take a look at what the bible says about people who intentionally try to rewrite the bible to fit their own whims.  Your thinking is becoming more clear to me.  I disagree with your aims - sucking up to the devil - but understand it.  It is one way to handle the uncertainty of eternity.[/QUOTE]

Ozero,

I am confused and a little saddened by what I've seen in these recent posts. I ask you, are we seeing the effects of religious mind control? No matter how difficult it is to wade through endless Bible quotations and interpretations of those quotations, do you really see insincerity. Certainly you have made it clear that you see error but is that error intentional or unintentional? Is the intent to harm or help others avoid harm, even if it is the wrong method?

In the journey that is life we are all on different paths and at different stages of our journey. I think we should let others take the journey their own way, offer advice if we feel they need the help, but not be too quick to condemn.

Peace

EI
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6 years ago  ::  May 31, 2008 - 1:23PM #164
ozero
Posts: 1,411
EI: "...even if it is the wrong method?"

I think the method should match the person.  In this case Iama is perfectly willing to condemn others for failure to agree with her, and she bases that on the bible as she interprets it.  I think the best way to counter that is to condemn her for the same reasons.  It's sad, but all to easy.  She does not or refuses to see the error of her approach or of her interpretations.  I think it best to use her methods to point out her failures. Biblical inerrancy and the evils that have been done to people because of it is worth the effort.  It is one of, if not the most, egregious sins in Christianity today.  It's based on a false premise and is used to justify pride and greed.  It is antichristian.
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6 years ago  ::  May 31, 2008 - 2:02PM #165
exploringinside
Posts: 1,294
[QUOTE=ozero;535293]EI: "...even if it is the wrong method?"

I think the method should match the person.  In this case Iama is perfectly willing to condemn others for failure to agree with her, and she bases that on the bible as she interprets it.  I think the best way to counter that is to condemn her for the same reasons.  It's sad, but all to easy.  She does not or refuses to see the error of her approach or of her interpretations.  I think it best to use her methods to point out her failures. Biblical inerrancy and the evils that have been done to people because of it is worth the effort.  It is one of, if not the most, egregious sins in Christianity today.  It's based on a false premise and is used to justify pride and greed.  It is antichristian.[/QUOTE]


Can we show a person an alternate path without the "tit-for-tat" condemnations? I seem to remember a passage that went something like "judge not, lest ye be judged." I think the idea is appropriate for atheists, too.
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6 years ago  ::  May 31, 2008 - 6:57PM #166
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,804
[QUOTE=iama].
IAMA:
1. "all the nations" literally means "all the Gentiles"
2. This is the judgment of those Gentiles who survive the tribulation and whose heart relation to God is evidenced by their treatment of the Jews (Christ's brethren v. 40), especially during the tribulation time.
3. The Christian-Church - Body of Christ - will have been Raptured - taken up to heaven prior to the Tribulation.
4. The Gentile nations will be judged with respect to their treatment of the Jews during the 7 year period - the last 7 years of Daniel's prophecy.
.
[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]
.
Ozero:
You realize, of course, that not one thing you posted there is in the bible, don't you?  You like things taken literally - as long as it conforms to your thinking and, if it doesn't, then rewrite it.  Very good.   You're still working for the antichrist.  Take a look at what the bible says about people who intentionally try to rewrite the bible to fit their own whims.  Your thinking is becoming more clear to me.  I disagree with your aims - sucking up to the devil - but understand it.  It is one way to handle the uncertainty of eternity.
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[/QUOTE]

Everything which I posted is Biblical!

The Gospel of Matthew was written, originally, for the Jews:

Matthew may be divided as follows:

I. The King Introduced: His Genealogy, Birth, and Early Life, 1-4

II. The Principles of the Rule of the King: the Sermon on the Mount, 5-7

III. The Authority of the King Manifested and Rejected, 8-12

IV. The Mysteries of the Kingdom; the Period Between the King's Two Advents, 13

V. The Ministry of the Rejected King, 14-13

VI. The Predicted Return of the King; the Olivet Discourse, 24-25

VII. The Death and Resurrection of the King, 26-28.

from: The New Scofield Reference Edition




From: Armageddon Appointment with Destiny by Grant E. Jeffrey

"In the late 1990's China will have an excess of 125 million Chinese boys of military age with no girls for them to marry and no prospects of their ever having a family of their own.  This same phenomenon is now being reported in India, Korea and other Asian countries.  when this group of 125 million military age young men is added to the armies that these huge countries already possess, it is possible to see that the biblical prophecy of a 200 million man army from the "Kings of the East" is not only literally possible; it is a terrible reality facing our world in the late 1990's.  Two thousand years ago God described the consequences of such events in telling John that the "Kings of the East" would have an army of 200 million.

During this incredible Battle of Armageddon, Christ will return from Heaven with His heavenly army (the millions of saints described in Jude, verse 14, 15) and destroy the nations of the world that have joined in battle to destroy Israel and each other.  Christ will destroy the Antichrist and the False Prophet and their armies.  He will defend Jerusalem and all who call upon His Name for protection (Zechariah 12:8-9). Jesus Christ will visibly return in glory as the "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" to set up His kingdom forever (Revelation 19:11-16).

All of Israel's past events have occurred on anniversaries of their feast and fast days on the Jewish liturgical calendar.  It would be consistent if this same pattern held and these final climatic events which usher in the Millennium were to occur on the last three significant feast days of the year including the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement and the final Feast of Tabernacles."




Rev 19:11-21
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself. And He [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God.

And the armies [which were] in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean (All believers).

And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He hath on [His] vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of His mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."




.
The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
.
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
.
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6 years ago  ::  May 31, 2008 - 8:21PM #167
SquirleyWurley
Posts: 1,970
It's quite easy to find patterns if you just look for them.  Especially in hundreds of pages of stories and poetry.

A feeling that the puzzle fits together doesn't mean that there is understanding of the future, present, or past.  It's possible to feel that way with lots of notions and systems of thought.
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6 years ago  ::  May 31, 2008 - 10:07PM #168
ozero
Posts: 1,411
EI: I do try not to judge, especially people, but after years of some things, it is difficult.  I do judge opinions and beliefs.

I assume you've read the last few posts.  What can you make of that?  "Everything is biblical".  Yet nothing in Iama's post showed that.  It still is the case that "All the nations" means "all the nations" in any literal interpretation.  The "rapture" is, like purgatory and limbo, a pious fiction.  The rapture is recent, dating only from the 19th century. Purgatory is centuries older and has a much better theological basis.  Neither purgatory nor the rapture are biblical. 

Now I don't really have a problem with people making stuff up and putting it into their religion.  But it is impossible to reason with someone on points of religious belief when that belief is not even based on some commonly acceptable norm, such as the bible.  My real problem is that Iama has consistently shown that she thinks her view is the "right" one and should be taught in schools and that opposing views are the work of the devil.   But she doesn't even have a consistent view or, perhaps, the ability to convey that view.  Obviously she is not guided by the Holy Spirit.  Any claim she might make regarding that is blaspheming that spirit and is unforgivable.  Maybe that's why she's gone over to the dark side.
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2008 - 1:32AM #169
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,804
[QUOTE=ozero;536269].
EI: I do try not to judge, especially people, but after years of some things, it is difficult.  I do judge opinions and beliefs.

I assume you've read the last few posts.  What can you make of that?  "Everything is biblical".  Yet nothing in Iama's post showed that.  It still is the case that "All the nations" means "all the nations" in any literal interpretation.  The "rapture" is, like purgatory and limbo, a pious fiction.  The rapture is recent, dating only from the 19th century. Purgatory is centuries older and has a much better theological basis.  Neither purgatory nor the rapture are biblical. 

Now I don't really have a problem with people making stuff up and putting it into their religion.  But it is impossible to reason with someone on points of religious belief when that belief is not even based on some commonly acceptable norm, such as the bible.  My real problem is that Iama has consistently shown that she thinks her view is the "right" one and should be taught in schools and that opposing views are the work of the devil.   But she doesn't even have a consistent view or, perhaps, the ability to convey that view.  Obviously she is not guided by the Holy Spirit.  Any claim she might make regarding that is blaspheming that spirit and is unforgivable.  Maybe that's why she's gone over to the dark side.
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[/QUOTE]

Notice in the following, that Christ Jesus brings with Him, the "in Christ" soul-spirits of all those whose bodies are "asleep in Jesus".  The resurrection bodies of all of these soul-spirits will be reunited with their soul-spirits. Their "hope of the resurrection of their body" at the time of THE RAPTURE will take place "in the twinkling of an eye" - quickly!

Then, all who are physically alive and are "in Christ Jesus" at that time, will, then, also receive their resurrection body, after those who have died "in Christ Jesus" receive theirs, also, "in the twinkling of an eye".

The word "Rapture" does not appear in the Bible. But the words "shall rise first" and "caught up together with them in the clouds" certainly do appear in the Bible.

The "Rapture" - the resurrection of the body - is the "hope" of everyone who is "in Christ Jesus".

Act 2:26      
"Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:"

Tts 1:2     
" In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"

1 Pe 1:3-5
"Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."


There will also be a resurrection of the dead for all who are NOT "in Christ Jesus" at the end of the Millennial Reign of King Christ Jesus - at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Act 24:15      
"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."


1Th 4:13-18
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
concerning them which are asleep (have died),
that ye sorrow not,
even as others which have no hope.

For
if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so
them also which sleep in Jesus (have died) will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that
we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them (go before them) which are asleep
.

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and
with the trump of God
:
and
the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then

we which are alive [and] remain

shall be caught up (THE RAPTURE) together with them in the clouds,

to meet the Lord in the air (THE RAPTURE): and

so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words."




1Cr 15:42-55
"So also [is] the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown (put into the ground) in corruption;
it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown (put into the ground) in dishonor;
it is raised in glory:
it is sown (put into the ground) in weakness;
it is raised in power:
It is sown (put into the ground) a natural body;
it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written,
The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam (Christ Jesus) [was made] a quickening spirit.

Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and
afterward that which is spiritual.

The first man (Adam) [is] of the earth, earthy:
the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and
as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

(THE RAPTURE - changed before we are caught up - mortality changed to immortality so that we may inhabit eternity.)

Behold, I shew you a mystery;

We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.


For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.

O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?




.
The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
.
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
.
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Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2008 - 1:59AM #170
exploringinside
Posts: 1,294
[QUOTE=ozero;536269]EI: I do try not to judge, especially people, but after years of some things, it is difficult.  I do judge opinions and beliefs.

I assume you've read the last few posts.  What can you make of that?  "Everything is biblical".  Yet nothing in Iama's post showed that.  It still is the case that "All the nations" means "all the nations" in any literal interpretation.  The "rapture" is, like purgatory and limbo, a pious fiction.  The rapture is recent, dating only from the 19th century. Purgatory is centuries older and has a much better theological basis.  Neither purgatory nor the rapture are biblical. 

Now I don't really have a problem with people making stuff up and putting it into their religion.  But it is impossible to reason with someone on points of religious belief when that belief is not even based on some commonly acceptable norm, such as the bible.  My real problem is that Iama has consistently shown that she thinks her view is the "right" one and should be taught in schools and that opposing views are the work of the devil.   But she doesn't even have a consistent view or, perhaps, the ability to convey that view.  Obviously she is not guided by the Holy Spirit.  Any claim she might make regarding that is blaspheming that spirit and is unforgivable.  Maybe that's why she's gone over to the dark side.[/QUOTE]

Ozero,

I have wished and tried to engage Iamachild in simple conversations, simple sentences that start with "I believe" and ones that aren't filled with quoted Bible verses; no one can really speak to a bible verse, otherwise there would be no sermons and all a minister would do is read the scriptures and go home again.

We reject the error but should not condemn the person. I believe part of the reason that there are so many different versions of Christianity is due to the fact that it is hard for groups of people to agree on what it means to be Christ-like (when they should probably be trying to be Jesus-like.). The infernal obsession with sin; "go and sin no more" says it all and yet there are those that spend their lives accusing other believers of being the Devil's servants. Maybe you two should try atheism; at least then you'd have no arrows to fill your quivers.

EI:)
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