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6 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2008 - 10:13AM #21
Kwinters
Posts: 18,090

OncominTrain wrote:

What it DOES indicate is that humans are not so different from the rest of the animal kingdom as many Creationists would like us to believe. Other highly intelligent, highly social animals are also capable of rather broadly empathetic behavior toward species other than their own.




Once again, OcT is 110% on target!

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2008 - 11:17AM #22
newchurchguy
Posts: 3,490
[QUOTE=OncominTrain;356825]Nicole-

All I'm saying here is that this event with the dolphin, though beautiful, doesn't really give us any indication for or against the existence of God. Those who believe God exists will naturally see his handiwork in it. Those who don't believe any god exists are not strapped for a fully naturalistic explanation of the phenomenon, any more than we are strapped for an explanation of human altruism.

Fr. T has been trying ever so hard to stake this event out as a point in favor of God's existence, when in fact it is a complete draw. What it DOES indicate is that humans are not so different from the rest of the animal kingdom as many Creationists would like us to believe. Other highly intelligent, highly social animals are also capable of rather broadly empathetic behavior toward species other than their own.[/QUOTE]

OCT,

IR (informational realism)- the secular philiosphic point of view I use as context for my understanding of reality -agrees with you.  It is based on a more modern version of neutral monism, a view expressed by Bertrum Russell.  It is neutral to a line of inference about whether there is a god - or no personal god.

It is not neutral to the epistemology of structure in science and math.  It is an extension of scientific realism in Russell's version of monism, which strongly leans of the models of mathematics.  In the version by Kenneth Sayre, it is extended to lean on the math basis of Information Theory.  So the laws of physics are just these structures expressed as constants of natural phenomena and the ratios that define them.

Negentropy at the level of thermodynamics, bits that carry data and messages in communication science and logic propositions are included as a group; and define a separate level of structure that covers organization and order.  These according to Sayre (citing J. Von Neumann) make up the basis of Information Theory.  The first two are rooted in physicalness - just as signal processing, from the environment to the dolphin and from the dolphin's merging of his instincts and learning with these signals. 

But logic is structure in a different domain or topological "space" than manifest matter/energy events.  It is structure in virtual reality.

For Teilhard, Nicole and I to assert that there is a formal moral structure inherent in the universe - while not pointing to a god - does dovetail with God being a reasoned cause of all universal logical structures such as the laws of physics and logic. 

Sayre, on the other hand, makes no such concession. He holds a pure information view according to which both mind and matter are, ultimately, mathematical structures:

Contrary to current dogma in some quarters that materialism and dualism are the only ontological options on the horizon, a more plausible alternative from the cybernetic point of view is some version of neutral monism.  Sayre attempts to articulate a monism in which neither information-functions [in Shannon's technical sense] of cognitive activity nor probabilistic functions at the quantum level of matter are further reducible to mental or physical features, making mathematical (statistical) structures more basic ontologically than either mind or matter. (Sayre 1996, 312)  - L. Stubenberg, In the article on Neutral Monism in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Phiosophy


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6 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2008 - 7:18PM #23
Moth
Posts: 20
[QUOTE=MMarcoe;354330]I second the idea that altruism is an evolutionary development designed to protect a species.

In the case of a dolphin helping a whale, though, one has to wonder about this. Does it help the dolphin? Maybe it does, in some way we haven't yet discovered.[/QUOTE]

I pondered over this question as I was reading the story, I was able to come up with a couple of theories that may support:
1. Whale carcases attract all sorts of scavengers, which in turn attract larger sharks, the southern ocean is notorious for great whites, so by removing the carcases, the dolphin has averted some danger to itself. This shows a pretty complex thought pattern, but one I'm pretty sure dolphins are capable of, testing has shown they have a very high level of intelligence.
2. It wanted to impress us. I know this might sound dumb at first, but this dolphin is a regular at this beach, and probably gets rewarded in some way for its actions; praise, fish, a pat on the head. Noticing humans helping the stranded whales, Moko might have seen an opportunity to get a reward by helping out.

That aside, that was one of the best news stories I've ever read.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2008 - 7:04PM #24
teilhard
Posts: 48,228
[QUOTE=teilhard;356567]Maybe there IS
a Moral Structure to Existence Itself ... ???

MAYBE
that is WHY
some of our "Atheist" Siblings ARE indeed
Entirely Morally Upright and Highly Ethical Persons
even WITHOUT holding
a Particular Traditional Religious Faith ...

And MAYBE
that Moral Structure To Existence Itself
is ONE Indication
that There IS a "God" ...[/QUOTE]


And NONE of the above
in ANY respect
takes way or diminishes
The Realities of Biology,
but rather helps us to Understand them ....
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2008 - 9:47PM #25
Curious_Soul
Posts: 657
oncomin


this is interesting too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E51DyWl_q0c
Just Curious!

Mohinder: [Voiceover] Where does it come from? This quest? This need to solve lifes mysteries when the simpliest of questions can never be answered. Why are we here? What is the soul? Why do we dream? Perhaps we would be better off not looking at all. Not delving. Not yearning. But that's not human nature. Not the human heart. That is not why we are here. Yet still we struggle to make a difference. To change the world. To dream of hope. Never knowing for certain who we'll meet along the way. Who, among the world of strangers, will hold our hand. Touch our hearts. And share the pain of trying. __Heroes

Tyler Durden: Reject the basic assumptions of civilization, especially the importance of material possessions__Fight Club
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2008 - 11:49PM #26
Oncomintrain
Posts: 2,858
[QUOTE=teilhard;363638]And NONE of the above
in ANY respect
takes way or diminishes
The Realities of Biology,
but rather helps us to Understand them ....[/QUOTE]

Actually, none of which (if you are referring to your own post) sheds any light on biology whatsoever.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2008 - 1:38PM #27
teilhard
Posts: 48,228
[QUOTE=OncominTrain;364432]Actually, none of which (if you are referring to your own post) sheds any light on biology whatsoever.[/QUOTE]

Or maybe it DOES ...
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2008 - 5:21PM #28
Oncomintrain
Posts: 2,858
[QUOTE=teilhard;365564]Or maybe it DOES ...[/QUOTE]

Nuh uuuuuh...
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 19, 2008 - 12:18PM #29
teilhard
Posts: 48,228
[QUOTE=OncominTrain;366164]Nuh uuuuuh...[/QUOTE]

"Seein' me and Julio -- down by the Schoolyard ... "
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