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Switch to Forum Live View Is faith a logic killer?
7 years ago  ::  Feb 29, 2008 - 6:13PM #1
sci-objectivist
Posts: 102
There  seems to be two mindsets regarding faith and logic.You either hold on to faith,regardless of what scholarly scientists and historians say,or you adapt your beliefs to something more metaphorical,or you steadfastly hang onto your beliefs and interpret the new scientific and historic discoveries so that they match your faith.

It's the latter school of thought I have the most trouble with.I see folks hosting websites about how the earth is actually a fixed object in the universe and thus,the center of everything,so that it matches their rather myopic religious perspective.I see people walking around with T shirts,hats and bumper stickers that say, "God said it.I believe it.That settles it."Actually that's bad theology for if God is the final authority,then the slogan should read,"God said it.That settles it".What you believe or not believe is rather moot at this point. Maybe to the very faithful,it should read,"God said it.That settles it and who asked for your 2 cents?"

So does strong,unshakable faith in a religious belief shut down the logical part of the brain?In debating some issues,it certainly seems that way to me,and what's even more disturbing is,it seems to spill over into beliefs outside of religion.I remember back in the 80's when there was a media scare about Satanic Ritual Abuse.Law enforcement agencies were bulldozing day care lots (McMartin Preschool,California 1983) and the like as children told horror stories that were so fanciful,only the daft would believe them(it was proven that the kids were "coached").Stories of how they were put in cages with lions and flown all over the world to participate in ritual abuse.When journalist Arthur Lyons questioned some of the parents on how impossible the mechanics of those stories were (such as how much it really takes to care for a lion as well as the logistics of flying children all over the world),people got angry with him.How dare he question their kids' stories?
I'm just wondering if any studies have been done on the brains of the extremely religious and what differences they find.So,are you one who walks by faith or one who filters everything through logic?Why or why not?Is one way better than the other?
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 29, 2008 - 11:43PM #2
nicoletate
Posts: 3,398
My faith needs logic. In my opinion, the key to faith is understanding, so if we couldn't understand anything about our nature and the natural world around us, why is there any claim that life may have been intellectually formed.

We were given brains, so we should use them to their utmost abilities. Why should we shut all reasoning down, when it's there for us to explore? That's like creating Superman, but not exactly letting him be "Superman". Faith is not a war with logic, the individual is.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 01, 2008 - 12:13AM #3
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,674
[QUOTE=sci-objectivist;323261].
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There  seems to be two mindsets regarding faith and logic. You either hold on to faith, regardless of what scholarly scientists and historians say, or you adapt your beliefs to something more metaphorical, or you steadfastly hang onto your beliefs and interpret the new scientific and historic discoveries so that they match your faith.
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[/QUOTE]

1. Bible -

I begin with the Bible as a holy book.  That means that the Bible is "set apart" from all other books. The Bible was physically recorded by the hands of men, but the "minds" of the humans were "inspired" by the Unseen Author, God-Holy Spirit.  The minds of these men were all different in their personalities/their use of language/their way of expressing themselves/their education levels/etc. So as you read the Bible, each book gives evidence of the human-recorder's mind.  God-Holy Spirit, "inspiring" the human mind of each recorder, directed the recording. 

2. Creation -

The Earth/Universe and "all that in them is" gives witness to its Creator-God - Father-Son-Holy Spirit - "His eternal power and Godhead."

3. God - Father-Son-Holy Spirit  -

The God of the Bible is revealed via the Bible as the Creator, the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent One.  His character is righteous, just, truth, love, life, light, peace, merciful, gracious, faithful, trustworthy, etc. He has made promises which He has always kept.  He has made promises which have yet to be kept, and will be. 

4. THE FAITH of God -

THE FAITH of God is not something which is sourced with humans. THE FAITH of God is God - Father-Son-Holy Spirit, Himself, and all that He has revealed Himself to be via the Bible and via His Creation.

5. Believing -

Believing is the human activity of our Intellect, Emotion and Will - our inner Person - our heart/spirit. Each human being holds within his inner being, his belief structure/system/world-view.

Rom 3:3      
"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"

When an human believes THE FAITH of God, as He and His promises are recorded in the Bible, that THE FAITH of God, becomes his, the believer's, "the faith" - THE FAITH of God, Whom He believes.  God-Holy Spirit indwells the believer's spirit/heart and "births him/her from above".

4. Logic -

Our Creator-God created humans with the person-attributes: Intellect, Emotion and Will.  We humans, as originally created, are rational beings. Our Creator-God invites humans to come to HIm so that we, with HIm, via His Word, the Bible, may "reason" together with Him.

Isa 1:18      
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Logic and Reason, etc. are PERSON-attributes, which our Creator-God also uses.  He would NEVER negate HIS OWN logic and reason!

BUT, there is a problem with human reasoning powers/abilities vs God's reasoning powers/abilities. God is light/righteous, but humans are dark/sinners.

We humans are prone to errors in judgment - we don't have all of the information - and we reason wrongly, often.

Pro 14:12      
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death."


Humans have been given the Bible as our source of light/wisdom/truth/etc.

Psa 119:89   
"For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven."

Psa 119:105    
"Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."

Psa 119:140    
"Thy word [is] very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it."

Psa 119:160    
"Thy word [is] true [from] the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments [endureth] for ever."

Jhn 17:17    
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."



[QUOTE]
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It's the latter school of thought I have the most trouble with. I see folks hosting websites about how the earth is actually a fixed object in the universe and thus, the center of everything, so that it matches their rather myopic religious perspective. I see people walking around with T shirts, hats and bumper stickers that say, "God said it. I believe it. That settles it. "Actually that's bad theology for if God is the final authority, then the slogan should read, "God said it.That settles it". What you believe or not believe is rather moot at this point. Maybe to the very faithful, it should read, "God said it. That settles it and who asked for your 2 cents?"
.
[/QUOTE]

"God said it! That settles it and who asked for your 2 cents?"



[QUOTE]
.
So does strong, unshakable faith in a religious belief shut down the logical part of the brain?
.
[/QUOTE]

No! For me, logic and reason are always involved.  I, of course, begin with the Bible as the Authority, and take the issue there for Its truth.

I don't really find a lot of disagreements between the Bible's truth claims and anything else. 

- I recognize and uphold the human activity, science, as long as it isn't contaminated with the "speculation"/anything to do with "origin of species" or any other form of evolution.

- I don't see the Earth/Universe and "all that in them is" as being millions of years old.

- I see much evidence of the biblical worldwide flood with its catastrophic results, evidenced in the sedimentary, fossil containing, rock layers worldwide.

- I see the evidence of evil/sin/sinners daily.

- I know my Creator-God, experientially.  He has given to me His life, His mind, His light, His all that I need.  I thank Him daily that He is my sovereign God, and that I am His child, by a second birth - "from above".  I swim in the ocean of His love, grace, mercy, forgiveness.........




[QUOTE]
.
In debating some issues, it certainly seems that way to me, and what's even more disturbing is, it seems to spill over into beliefs outside of religion. I remember back in the 80's when there was a media scare about Satanic Ritual Abuse. Law enforcement agencies were bulldozing day care lots (McMartin Preschool,California 1983) and the like as children told horror stories that were so fanciful, only the daft would believe them (it was proven that the kids were "coached"). Stories of how they were put in cages with lions and flown all over the world to participate in ritual abuse. When journalist Arthur Lyons questioned some of the parents on how impossible the mechanics of those stories were (such as how much it really takes to care for a lion as well as the logistics of flying children all over the world), people got angry with him.How dare he question their kids' stories?
.
[/QUOTE]

1. Satan is alive and well.

2. Satan's evil-angel-followers are active worldwide.

3. Satan is the default father of all once-born/physically only born-humans.

4. Evil spirits may indwell unbelieving humans and control them for their own purposes.

5. Religious belief may be a belief where "the faith of Satan/evil spirits/human created idols/etc." is being believed. 

6. Only THE FAITH of God, believed, and evil repented of/turned away from, and our Creator-God chosen as Lord and Master of a human life results in God-Holy Spirit CHANGING the human-sinner-spirit/heart into a God-birthed child of God.




[QUOTE]
.
I'm just wondering if any studies have been done on the brains of the extremely religious and what differences they find. So,are you one who walks by faith or one who filters everything through logic? Why or why not? Is one way better than the other?
.
[/QUOTE]

1. I don't think, based upon what I understand from the Bible, that a mechanical machine is going to be able to detect a spiritual change in any human.

2. The Bible states that when a "new creature in Christ Jesus" is "birthed from above" by God-Holy Spirit's regenerative power, that new spirit/heart will begin to be lived out from the spirit/heart via the soul/personality of the believer into the physical-body's physical realm. The character traits of God-Holy Spirit, His fruits: love, joy, peace,

Mat 7:16      
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

Mat 7:20    
"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

Gal 5:22-23
" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Eph 5:9    
"For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;"



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The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
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"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
.
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 1:48PM #4
teilhard
Posts: 51,386
"Faith" and "Logic"
are NOT the Same Thing ...
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 9:23PM #5
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,674
[QUOTE=teilhard;327262]
.
"Faith" and "Logic"
are NOT the Same Thing ...
.
[/QUOTE]

Is there any logic to YOUR faith?



.
The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
.
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
.
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Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 9:41PM #6
nicoletate
Posts: 3,398
[QUOTE=iamachildofhis;328187]Is there any logic to YOUR faith?



.[/QUOTE]

There's joy to my laugh, but joy and laughter are not the same thing.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 8:01AM #7
oddjoe
Posts: 811
[QUOTE=sci-objectivist;323261]So does strong,unshakable faith in a religious belief shut down the logical part of the brain?[/QUOTE]

I personally have noticed a similar tendency.  Apparently it is human nature to protect beliefs.  It seems to be a way to try to simplify a confusing, complex universe.  It can also be a coping mechanism for fear.
Nonself-defensive competition against others (fighting against others) is the root of human evil.
Let's try to overcome humanity's drive to reproduce on this finite planet.
Anarchism + perfect understanding and compassion within the citizenry = utopian socialism.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 12:36PM #8
exploringinside
Posts: 1,294
[QUOTE=sci-objectivist;323261]There  seems to be two mindsets regarding faith and logic.You either hold on to faith,regardless of what scholarly scientists and historians say,or you adapt your beliefs to something more metaphorical,or you steadfastly hang onto your beliefs and interpret the new scientific and historic discoveries so that they match your faith.

It's the latter school of thought I have the most trouble with.I see folks hosting websites about how the earth is actually a fixed object in the universe and thus,the center of everything,so that it matches their rather myopic religious perspective.I see people walking around with T shirts,hats and bumper stickers that say, "God said it.I believe it.That settles it."Actually that's bad theology for if God is the final authority,then the slogan should read,"God said it.That settles it".What you believe or not believe is rather moot at this point. Maybe to the very faithful,it should read,"God said it.That settles it and who asked for your 2 cents?"

So does strong,unshakable faith in a religious belief shut down the logical part of the brain? [/QUOTE]

Perhaps from the responses one can see a bit of confusion. Logic is a formal method of reasoning. In the deductive form of logic, the conclusions one reaches are dependendent upon the truth and/or actuality of the premises one makes and the accuracy of the inferences made from the implications of the premises.

Everyone uses logic, whether they are aware of it or not. We tell ourselves we should get out of bed, eat when we are hungry, drink when we are thirsty, work when we want to achieve some value; each of these is the result of logical thinking in action. Even a simple statement such as, "I think, therefore I am" has a logical basis.

When a person chooses a premise such as a Deity exists or a sacred text is a source of knowledge, they are not abandoning the process of logic. But, if one attempts to debate another person and does not accept such premises as being necessarily true, the debate will go nowhere. The human mind does not stop reasoning when employing faith; if the faith is misplaced, reality will bite, eventually.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 2:46PM #9
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,995
Um, HELLO!!! It's called "FAITH" for a reason. Logic has nothing to do with it.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 3:08PM #10
Seefan
Posts: 3,969
[QUOTE=Do_unto_others;334801]Um, HELLO!!! It's called "FAITH" for a reason. Logic has nothing to do with it.[/QUOTE]

Could you explain your statement with a little more information?
Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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