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Switch to Forum Live View Which belief is more egotistical?
7 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2008 - 12:25AM #21
exploringinside
Posts: 1,294
[QUOTE=iamachildofhis;328207]What power and authority does the "self" have with respect to eternity?

What value does the "self" have with respect to eternity? to whom? [/QUOTE]

The self is how we define the person; a selfless person is no person at all. Power, authority and value are not attributes of a selfless person. The dichotomy of most religions is their dependence upon the sacrifice of self to achieve their highest goals; the human spirit is not freed but is crushed by the loss of self; so, in the process of losing the self, one loses the core of their humanity, their human spirit.

The promise of an eternity as essentially a non-entity denegrates the life of a human as being "unworthy." It is good to be a human; it is good to live as a human.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2008 - 12:43AM #22
mountain_man
Posts: 39,266

Moth wrote:

I think that thinking you're more "special" than the other life forms that inhabit this world/universe is the very definition of egocentricity.


That's where the egocentricity of religions, especially the christian one, comes in. They actually believe they are a special creation and above all the other animals. They believe this god pays such close attention to them that they believe it actually cares what they eat, who they have sex with, and what they say! They believe that humans are the center of this gods attention.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2008 - 2:59PM #23
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,652
[QUOTE=exploringinside;331021]
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[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by iamachildofhis:

What power and authority does the "self" have with respect to eternity?

What value does the "self" have with respect to eternity? to whom?
.
[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]
.
The self is how we define the person; a selfless person is no person at all. Power, authority and value are not attributes of a selfless person. The dichotomy of most religions is their dependence upon the sacrifice of self to achieve their highest goals; the human spirit is not freed but is crushed by the loss of self; so, in the process of losing the self, one loses the core of their humanity, their human spirit.
.
[/QUOTE]

What you are stating is that an human is not just a physical body/form, but that the physical body/form houses the self/person/soul which expresses the human spirit/person - which exists to be free in its expression of the "issues of life" which only the spirit can express.

I agree with, and am very impressed with the truth of your above statement. The Bible presents the knowledge as to why this is true.

You mention "their dependence upon the sacrifice of self to achieve their highest goals" as a premise of "most" religions.

I am pleased that you state, "most," because the human life-existence which the Bible presents/advocates/enables does not fit with "most."

Since Genesis 3 all humans have not been "free in spirit," but, instead, have been bound by a sin-nature.

Christ Jesus incarnated to solve that human-spirit-condition.
   
Jhn 8:36    
"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."



[QUOTE]
.
The promise of an eternity as essentially a non-entity denegrates the life of a human as being "unworthy." It is good to be a human; it is good to live as a human.
.
[/QUOTE]

It is even better to be an human who has been made "free indeed" "in Christ Jesus!"

Jhn 10:10     
"The thief (Satan) cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly."


Hbr 6:17-20
"Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which enters into that within the veil; Whither the Forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, ..."

The Man, Christ Jesus, went into the Holy of Holies with His own precious, sinless, guiltless, blood, once for all, removing forever the sin-bondage and debt upon all sin-guilt-debt-bound-humans.

The Man Who entered into Heaven - ascended up - was the first of many humans - FREE in their spirits - and having an eternal-resurrection-body-form.

The goal of our Creator-God's love for His created humans is ultimate freedom of spirit/heart and the 100% ultimate authentication of each human-self as s/he was "In the beginning" created to be.




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The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
.
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2008 - 3:05PM #24
mountain_man
Posts: 39,266

iamachildofhis wrote:

The goal of our Creator-God's love for His created humans is ultimate freedom of spirit/heart .


Yet this god punishes you for all eternity if you do not worship him. It's a "love me or I'll punish you" game. If the believers in that god are not egotistical, the god sure is.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2008 - 6:30PM #25
Relates7
Posts: 1,060
[QUOTE=mountain_man;332339]Yet this god punishes you for all eternity if you do not worship him. It's a "love me or I'll punish you" game. If the believers in that god are not egotistical, the god sure is.[/QUOTE]

Response:  It is not love Me or I will punish you, it is worse.  It is love Me and everyone else or I will punish you.  You are right, Mountain Man.  God thinks that just because She created us, gave us life, cares for us, and protects us, we should be grateful to Him. The nerve of God.  We should show Her.  We need to cheat, rob, hate, lie, commit suicide, wage war,etc to show how much we don't need God and we humans are superior to God.   

Love and Peace,

Relates
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2008 - 10:59PM #26
mountain_man
Posts: 39,266

Relates7 wrote:

Response:  It is not love Me or I will punish you, it is worse.  It is love Me and everyone else or I will punish you.  You are right, Mountain Man.  God thinks that just because She created us, gave us life, cares for us, and protects us, we should be grateful to Him.


Then it should have made it clear that it exists. Right now there is absolutely no evidence such a being exists. What you're describing is called The Stockholm Syndrome.

The nerve of God.  We should show Her.  We need to cheat, rob, hate, lie, commit suicide, wage war,etc to show how much we don't need God and we humans are superior to God.


Of course I am superior to any god. I exist, they do not. That makes me superior to a character from a mythology.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 3:19AM #27
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,652
[QUOTE=mountain_man;333350].
Of course I am superior to any god. I exist, they do not. That makes me superior to a character from a mythology.
.
[/QUOTE]

The ONLY reason that you exist, is because He DOES exist!!!




.
The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
.
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
.
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Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 9:25AM #28
Relates7
Posts: 1,060
Thank you for your prompt response to my post.

[QUOTE=mountain_man;333350]Then it should have made it clear that it exists. Right now there is absolutely no evidence such a being exists. What you're describing is called The Stockholm Syndrome.


Of course I am superior to any god. I exist, they do not. That makes me superior to a character from a mythology.[/QUOTE]

Response:  Do you agree that we should look down on everyone to prove that God does not exist?  Is God right in saying that humans should love one another, or is this egotistical, nonexistent being dead wrong?   

Love and Peace,

Relates
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 11:04AM #29
exploringinside
Posts: 1,294
[QUOTE=iamachildofhis;332325]    [QUOTE=exploringinside;331021]
.
What you are stating is that an human is not just a physical body/form, but that the physical body/form houses the self/person/soul which expresses the human spirit/person - which exists to be free in its expression of the "issues of life" which only the spirit can express.

I agree with, and am very impressed with the truth of your above statement. The Bible presents the knowledge as to why this is true.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry I was not more precise as it is apparent you connect the human spirit with an immortal soul that is said to exist as part of a imagined spiritual realm. I believe otherwise.
We have many words we use to describe this special state of mind; we think of a place of reverence and peace; we think of a sense of awe and wonder; we think of a drive to push forward and achieve against all obstacles; we think of intense joy and love. All of these experiences are manifestations of the operation of the mental faculty we have identified as the human spirit. You might think of it as a bridge or mediator between the emotional and rational/reasoning portions of the mind; or the color on the palette that fills in the black and white sketches.


[QUOTE=iamachildofhis;332325] You mention "their dependence upon the sacrifice of self to achieve their highest goals" as a premise of "most" religions.

I am pleased that you state, "most," because the human life-existence which the Bible presents/advocates/enables does not fit with "most."

Since Genesis 3 all humans have not been "free in spirit," but, instead, have been bound by a sin-nature.[/QUOTE]

Religions want to claim a special knowledge of the human spirit but most attempt to lead us to this state of mind by manipulating the emotions, temporarily turning our attention to our personal feelings we (or they) identify as spiritual ones. Music, religious icons, rituals, prayers and others become focusing tools to stir the sensations of human spirit. If religion’s only intent were to enable people to become firmly in touch with their spirit, it would be a noble purpose. It’s sad to me that one of the most elegant faculties of the human mind is credited to a Deity; I know it inspires the hope of transcending mortality but it also diminishes the richness of true independence, which I believe should be the core of human spirituality.

The notion of a  "sin-nature" that you mention is the theological device I find most repugnant. A tendency to commit evil acts is like a bird attempting to break its own wings so it won't have to live as a bird (and in that process it won't live at all.) Any living thing must take actions that preserve its life and social beings must take actions that preserve the lives of the group. That is what most humans do best; those that choose to act in ways that are anti-life are at odds with those that wish to live and are treated accordingly.

[QUOTE=iamachildofhis;332325] The Man, Christ Jesus, went into the Holy of Holies with His own precious, sinless, guiltless, blood, once for all, removing forever the sin-bondage and debt upon all sin-guilt-debt-bound-humans.

The Man Who entered into Heaven - ascended up - was the first of many humans - FREE in their spirits - and having an eternal-resurrection-body-form.

The goal of our Creator-God's love for His created humans is ultimate freedom of spirit/heart and the 100% ultimate authentication of each human-self as s/he was "In the beginning" created to be. [/QUOTE]

I think by now you see that I disagree with this entire concept. The nature of a human is to be a human and a wise human will use all the faculties of their mind to live to the best of their ability. Your religion teaches that humanity is flawed and unable to reach the perfection of your Deities. Entering into Heaven is a desire to transcend humaness to leave this flawed existence your religion vilifies. The human spirit, freed of such notions, seeks life as a human, not a ghost.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 12:40PM #30
Relates7
Posts: 1,060
Thank you for this interesting post.

[QUOTE=exploringinside;334180] The nature of a human is to be a human and a wise human will use all the faculties of their mind to live to the best of their ability. Your religion teaches that humanity is flawed and unable to reach the perfection of your Deities. Entering into Heaven is a desire to transcend humaness to leave this flawed existence your religion vilifies. The human spirit, freed of such notions, seeks life as a human, not a ghost.[/QUOTE]

Response:  What is the human spirit?  This appears to be the question under discussion.  You say that the nature of a human is to be human, and I quite agree, but what does it mean to be human?  Jesus in effect said that to be a true human one must love God (our Source), love others, and love ourselves.  Now looking around, it is evident that humanity is flawed because we do not love others and most likely do not love ourselves.  I will not judge our relationship to God.

Therefore, our desire to enter heaven in order to live in a loving relationship with God and humanity after our lives here are finished is not to flee our humanity, but to fulfill our humanity.  It can also be fulfilled in part in this world as we live in love with God and other humans. 

Romans 8:35-39 demonstrates how our human need to love and be loved is fulfilled in God's Love, and God's love continues even when our earthly body is deceased.  In heaven we will receive a spiritual body so we will always be fully human. 

Of course many laugh at the humaness of the Christian view of heaven, but since you value humanity, you understand why God wants humans to be comfortable in heaven where only the flaws of disappointment, hatred, injustice, sickness, death, failure, will be missing.  If you want to keep these flaws, you can have them.

Love and Peace,

Relates
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