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5 years ago  ::  Aug 23, 2008 - 12:00AM #1
Somebodyelse
Posts: 517
OK. I'm wearing my hard hat for this one.

I've been thinking about the evolutionary selection of religion as a common human trait. I'm sure may scholars have written about this but here are my musings about one possibility.

Religion, inspired by religious mental experiences, were selected for as software for the brain in early humans living in social and/or familial groups. It's easy to see why humans in groups are more likely to survive than lone hunters. Religion gave a coherence to the tribe. It inspired loyalty to tribe members, provided motivation for tribe values, was a format in which at least some teaching about the natural world could be passed on. It provided a platform on which sacrifice for the 'greater good' could be built.

Religion also helped the tribe compete against other tribes by inspiring courage, devotion to the tribe, willingness to sacrifice. Other tribes could be painted as 'evil' and made less than human.

With these benefits I can easily see why religious experience could be selected for. But has religion outlasted its usefulness? At our current state of development, thinking in terms of tribes is only short-sighted and destructive. There have been some valiant attempts to redefine religion as inclusive of all humanity, all life and even the entire planet. To the extent this repackaging of the software works we can only applaud.

Too often however we still see the old tribal version of religion, most prevalent among fundamentalists of all stripes.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 23, 2008 - 12:20AM #2
John_T_Mainer
Posts: 1,657
There are two fundamental types of questions that we ask as human beings.  The first is practical, ie how.  The second is philosophical, ie why.

Practical is answered best by science, engineering, and similar disciplines.
Philosophical questions honestly are not adequetly addressed by science.

Biology tells us that your only purpose in life is to replicate your DNA.  Thats it.  Nothing else.  If you were the greatest genius who ever lived, earned billions and inspired millions with your work, you failed. Bubba the halfwit drunk in the trailer park with six kids by six different ex-girlfriends, won.

Some part of us honestly is unsatisfied with this being the only point of being human.  Some part of us feels somethng more profound, less easily quantified, but still so powerfully present that most of us cannot ignore it, even if we can find little rational reason why its practice should benefit us.

We turn to philosophy, to faith, to honour, to all those fuzzy sounding illogical ideas that caused us to start painting on cave walls, and scratching symbols into stone.

We accept that we are more than flesh, more than a sack of carbon based chemicals in a controlled burn and advancing state of decay. 

I am.   One day I will be gone.  While I live I will honour the gods, protect and nurture my kin, serve my country and my folk, and live with honour that will make my descendants strive to equal, and my ancestors proud to name me as their own.

I don't ask the gods how, and I don't ask science why.   If you dissagree, well, I can't say it really matters to me much. :)
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 23, 2008 - 1:36AM #3
Omarkhayyam
Posts: 4,224
OK, let's say arguendo we allow ALL that is true. You have this "sense" and you accept this as evidence of "something" not otherwise explained, etc.

Is THAT religion?:eek:

I submit it is NOT. And as evidence for that assertion I ask, where are your holy texts, where are your priests, where are your temples, where are your sacraments? How do you describe your "god"?:confused:

Absent these things you have a natural wonder at the complexity of universe which can summed up as - something, somewhere, is a lot smarter than I am.

That ain't that 'ole timy religion' Nor by a long shot.
This is OZ? I want back to KS.

What was it? Click your heels together 3 times and say - what??
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 23, 2008 - 12:34PM #4
John_T_Mainer
Posts: 1,657
[QUOTE=OmarKhayyam;711083]OK, let's say arguendo we allow ALL that is true. You have this "sense" and you accept this as evidence of "something" not otherwise explained, etc.

Is THAT religion?:eek:

I submit it is NOT. And as evidence for that assertion I ask, where are your holy texts, where are your priests, where are your temples, where are your sacraments? How do you describe your "god"?:confused:

Absent these things you have a natural wonder at the complexity of universe which can summed up as - something, somewhere, is a lot smarter than I am.

That ain't that 'ole timy religion' Nor by a long shot.[/QUOTE]

If that was to me I shall reply.

I have my holy text, they are called the Edda.  I have had priests for years, we call them ghodi.  I have to admit to some surprise that I was elected to the position of FreyR or sacral leader of the Freehold at the last Althing so now I am among the priests of the faith.

Our gods are the Aesir (gods and goddesses of the spirit), and the Vanir (gods and goddesses of the material world).  Our temples are usually outside, although we have been building a sacral mead hall for the last few years, and when completed will be the first purpose raised Asatru temple in Canada since the Viking settlements of Newfoundland a thousand years ago. 

As far as old time religion goes, we were happily practicing it back in the First Century when Tacitus wrote Germania, and kept it until the brutal suppression by such leaders as Charlemagne who found the Saxon Heathens were unwilling to tollerate absolute dictators, unwilling to give up their ancient faith, or ancient freedoms until put to the slaughter by the "Holy" "Roman" "Empire" of pig ignorant feudalist horse barbarians who liked the whole idea of the "divine right of kings" that Christianity was selling.

I did not imply that ours is in any way the only faith of humanity, nor even the best for others.  The question was asked why religion in general, so I avoided specifics that are not universal.  I fully expect others to seek their own answers.  That is the purpose of sentience, is it not?
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 23, 2008 - 1:47PM #5
teilhard
Posts: 43,019
[QUOTE=Somebodyelse;710906]OK. I'm wearing my hard hat for this one.

I've been thinking about the evolutionary selection of religion as a common human trait. I'm sure may scholars have written about this but here are my musings about one possibility.

Religion, inspired by religious mental experiences, were selected for as software for the brain in early humans living in social and/or familial groups. It's easy to see why humans in groups are more likely to survive than lone hunters. Religion gave a coherence to the tribe. It inspired loyalty to tribe members, provided motivation for tribe values, was a format in which at least some teaching about the natural world could be passed on. It provided a platform on which sacrifice for the 'greater good' could be built.

Religion also helped the tribe compete against other tribes by inspiring courage, devotion to the tribe, willingness to sacrifice. Other tribes could be painted as 'evil' and made less than human.

With these benefits I can easily see why religious experience could be selected for. But has religion outlasted its usefulness? At our current state of development, thinking in terms of tribes is only short-sighted and destructive. There have been some valiant attempts to redefine religion as inclusive of all humanity, all life and even the entire planet. To the extent this repackaging of the software works we can only applaud.

Too often however we still see the old tribal version of religion, most prevalent among fundamentalists of all stripes.[/QUOTE]

I Experience -- and Understand --
"Religion" as
-- among other things --
"Reality Orientation" ....
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 23, 2008 - 1:48PM #6
teilhard
Posts: 43,019
[QUOTE=OmarKhayyam;711083]OK, let's say arguendo we allow ALL that is true. You have this "sense" and you accept this as evidence of "something" not otherwise explained, etc.

Is THAT religion?:eek:

I submit it is NOT. And as evidence for that assertion I ask, where are your holy texts, where are your priests, where are your temples, where are your sacraments? How do you describe your "god"?:confused:

Absent these things you have a natural wonder at the complexity of universe which can summed up as - something, somewhere, is a lot smarter than I am.

That ain't that 'ole timy religion' Nor by a long shot.[/QUOTE]

The Most Basic Essence
of "Religion"
is ... "Worship" ....
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 23, 2008 - 2:28PM #7
Ken
Posts: 33,860

teilhard wrote:

The Most Basic Essence
of "Religion"
is ... "Worship" ....

Except when it isn't. Many forms of Buddhism omit the devotional element. We also know of religions that consist of propitiatory or magical practices without worship.

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 23, 2008 - 6:33PM #8
Omarkhayyam
Posts: 4,224
"The Most Basic Essence
of "Religion"
is ... "Worship" ...."

WOW! Now there’s a compelling and profound observation. Reminds me again of why the good Fr. Is on my ignore list.

Perhaps you explain how this justifies, nay requires, a story about a Jewish zombie who is coming back to punish me for something I didn’t do not only be true but the ONLY truth ever.:confused:
This is OZ? I want back to KS.

What was it? Click your heels together 3 times and say - what??
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 23, 2008 - 7:55PM #9
John_T_Mainer
Posts: 1,657
[QUOTE=OmarKhayyam;712544]"The Most Basic Essence
of "Religion"
is ... "Worship" ...."

WOW! Now there’s a compelling and profound observation. Reminds me again of why the good Fr. Is on my ignore list.

Perhaps you explain how this justifies, nay requires, a story about a Jewish zombie who is coming back to punish me for something I didn’t do not only be true but the ONLY truth ever.:confused:[/QUOTE]

Religion or faith does not require the submission and grovelling that seem to be part of the  package deal sold with Christianity and Islam.  Many faiths and beleif systems do not have the concept of sin or salvation, being content with individual responsibility for your own actions.

I don't get the whole Jewish Zombie thing either.  I didn't wack him, nor did he get wacked for me or mine, so I remain largely uninterested.
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5 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2008 - 9:48PM #10
teilhard
Posts: 43,019
[QUOTE=Ken;712069]Except when it isn't. Many forms of Buddhism omit the devotional element. We also know of religions that consist of propitiatory or magical practices without worship.[/QUOTE]

uh huh ...

"Buddhism" -- a later development of The Hindu Faith --
is rather an unusual "Religion,"
isn't it ... ???

Even at THAT,
however,
"Buddhist" Practice DOES commonly include
Prayers, Hymns, Chants, Sacrifice
  -- all of which are Elements of ... "Worship" ....
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