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Switch to Forum Live View The jury is still out on evolution.
10 years ago  ::  Nov 11, 2007 - 10:45PM #31
Vistronic
Posts: 1,838

ozero wrote:

vis: "...the "scientific method" only crowd, strongly leans a person to atheism or agnosticism at minimum IMHO."

Don't you think that the real problem is not science pushing people toward atheism or agnosticism, but "creationism religion". People are not stupid and they can see the dishonesty and deceit and politicization within the fundamentalist movement. None of the real Christian denominations are complaining about science turning their people off, they suggest other problems. No other sect is so full of such obvious liars. I'm not talking about people who make statements that they truly believe in, but are in error, but people who know that what they are claiming are lies. They've been called on them before, acknowledged them publicly and then turn around and use the same lies the next time they speak at a church or gathering. I don't think anything is as deadly to faith as deceit. Within science there have been lies, piltdown man etc, that are often brought up by creationists, but the people who exposed those lies were scientists. Of all the top creationists who have been exposed as liars, none of them were brought to the carpet by other creationists. It makes it appear that the whole movement is dishonest, is the problem. Start a movement to bring honesty to your religion and maybe you wouldn't see so many of them going to atheism or agnosticism.



The following reply is my opinion.

Hello, lets be clear on one thing,

Rev 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."


This is the warning that Creationists including myself should listen and heed.
The majority of Creationists are people of the "word" and try to live there lives the opposite of liars.

The minority do not. They "bend" reality (sic) for the greater good (or so it appears to them, sometimes unintentionally).

This very much grieves many.

The "YEC creationism" is not a tenet of faith in Jesus or salvation IMHO,
To me Creation by God is a paramount statement but becoming born again is the major concern. The Creation mechanics of how or why are in his hands.

That said I still favor a literal translation of the Bible.
I still contend that Jesus is a valid figure in history and in the current time ( and to me the Savior).
That Genesis is a most Logical and Beautiful and accurate Creation account.
I apologize to all here who where offended by "creationist" liars. I can assure you that many, many, creationists are not.

Just as many Christian Television shows are NOT hosted by con men. Some maybe, the minority.

In His service,
Vis.

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10 years ago  ::  Nov 11, 2007 - 11:20PM #32
Vistronic
Posts: 1,838
[quote=Bl

Bummer I just lost my next post... bugs more later...
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10 years ago  ::  Nov 12, 2007 - 2:01AM #33
Oncomintrain
Posts: 3,516
[QUOTE=teilhard;58625]There ARE indeed FAR more than only TWO options,
i.e.,
EITHER
(1)  a naive Literal-Historical-Factual understanding of Bronze Age Mythological Stories,
OR
(2) "Atheism" ...[/QUOTE]

I think you are awfully hard on the Bronze Age, frankly. Exactly what do you imagine distances your faith from theirs? A few volumes of Kierkegaard? The Bible was WRITTEN in the Bronze Age, you know. I am actively curious to know what you know about God that Cicero didn't. And I'm not being facetious. I honestly am curious.
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10 years ago  ::  Nov 12, 2007 - 3:41AM #34
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754
[QUOTE=Vistronic;61929] "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all [/SIZE]liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Heya Vis-
where in this anti-pantheon do you place the scientists?  I like 'sorcerer,' myself.
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10 years ago  ::  Nov 12, 2007 - 1:03PM #35
teilhard
Posts: 53,304
Who says Fr. Teilhard
"knows more about 'God' than Cicero did" ... ???
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10 years ago  ::  Nov 13, 2007 - 7:36AM #36
DGMelby
Posts: 970
[QUOTE=Vistronic;50912]It appears the Republican party is the pro-creation party in the coming election. It is rather unfortunate that the debate did not take this opportunity to examine this important issue.

But as we can see, people of reasonable intelligence do not have to cow-tow to the evolution party line to be politically correct.[/QUOTE]

Since the Republican party sold its soul and integrity to the Religious Right, in exchange for more votes, I haven't been overly impressed by them.  Quite frankly, I'm still waiting for Christian Evangelicals to wake up and realize how badly they're being used, and how their quest for restore Christian Privilage is tearing this country apart.  The old saying is true:  when politics sleeps in the same bed as religion, both are degraded.  It is amazing how Matthew 23 still describes, and warns against, the Religious Right.

As a former Republican, I'm disgusted by the current party leadership, especially the Bush administration.  The Republican party used to advertise itself as the party of fiscal responsibility.  Under Reagan and the Bushes, it's now the party of deficit spending.    If Reagan and the Bushs had followed the trends of past Republicans AND Democrats, we would've had no national debt by now.  It used to be the party of government non-intrusion into private life.  Now its the party that prides itself for its intrusion, in the name of Christinaity to boot.

At any rate, Reality isn't decided by jury, nor by popular vote.  Reality isn't decided by wishful thinking nor by ignorance.  Reality certainly isn't decided by deception, which is what statements like "The jury is out on evolution," are.  Reality is the sole arbiter of Truth, and science remains the best tool for approaching that Truth in regards to the natural world.  The jury is in on evolution, and it has been found to be true.  All is left is teasing out the minute details.

{returns to lurking... following my first post on the new boards.}
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10 years ago  ::  Nov 13, 2007 - 3:09PM #37
Kwinters
Posts: 24,617
Vis,

>>>What I have a problem with is not giving God the glory for his creation.


Where is your evidence that God created anything?  All the evidence says that your imaginary god ain't done shit.

And if he did do shit, he's a pretty lousy creator.  Humans beings are making genetic improvements on 'his' shit design, so what sort of C-student god are you fobbing off on us?

And where is your evidence for this imaginary being, other than in your head?

Got anything real?

Of course you don't.
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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10 years ago  ::  Nov 13, 2007 - 10:43PM #38
Vistronic
Posts: 1,838

Blü wrote:

That's blu with an umlaut

Vis

The philosophy ... of a general evolutionary type movement within "science", the "scientific method" only crowd, strongly leans a person to atheism or agnosticism at minimum IMHO.
Illustrated by this statement I will make but not agree with,
Every area of knowledge must be proven by the "scientific method".

Why do you all claim it stops at religion and faith? Carry this philosophy to its conclusion.

I never thought it did. I think everything in and about the natural world is examinable by science. It's true that we haven't spent a lot of time working out theories of 'wisdom' or 'ethics' via testable and falsifiable propositions, but we're starting to, and we have many more tools available these days than we did even a decade ago.



Thank you for this honest answer. This is what I was saying. If you take the philosphy of current science this is indeed the outcome. I know I have followed this same road to this same conclusion. To me though "science" does not trump faith.

In His service,
Vis.

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10 years ago  ::  Nov 13, 2007 - 10:49PM #39
Vistronic
Posts: 1,838

bright moon wrote:



what youre describing is called philosophical naturalism and is a philosophy not a scientific method  IMHO what "leans a person towards atheism" are the fabrications and outright nonsense creationists have to accept in order to believe in a God ...... im quite sure you can google Glenn Morton who's written about why he became an agnostic if not an atheist
*honestly, i dont know how... im racially mixed and all of my moms folks are southerners ....none of them accept YEC and they still live there and have lived there since slavery days



Thank you for the correction. I contend then that current "science" does lead some to philosophical naturalism in turn leads some to agnosticism or atheist-ism.

In his service,
Vis.

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10 years ago  ::  Nov 13, 2007 - 10:50PM #40
Vistronic
Posts: 1,838

bluehorserunning wrote:

Vistronic wrote:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all [/size]liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Heya Vis-
where in this anti-pantheon do you place the scientists? I like 'sorcerer,' myself.



:D
aahhh I was thinking of just the Liar part

all the best,
Vis.

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