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Switch to Forum Live View I dont see the reasoning behind ProCHOICE views. Enlighten me.
3 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 9:30PM #1
Natiluv
Posts: 1

Before anything, I will say im Pro-Life. I value the life of any human that does not intentionally harm or deliberately puts others in danger. I understand the reasoning behind pro-choicers being for abortion when the mother's life is in danger and I agree with that(So I would be pro - life and pro-choice) but I dont understand why "Pro-CHOICERS" call themselves pro-choicers. You know who you are, arguing only for abortion and not for the other parts of pro choice.

From my view, it seems most "pro-choicers" are selfish. I can see why rape victims would feel an abortion is necessary but does abortion really solve anything in that case? You're blaming an unborn child for the mistakes of the father.

"Pro-Choicers", Ive heard it all, you choose abortion because your life would have to change to accomodate a baby, maybe you already have one or two and are not happy?, you're financially insecure, your body image would change, or you're "just not ready" , etc. There is plenty of protection against an unwanted preganancy such as BC pills, condoms (teach your man to use them correctly), avoiding risky situations and places, or not having sex(especially you teenagers). All of these options can greatly reduce your chance to get pregnant.

Whether we like it or not life does begin at conception, or at least its meant to start life. By stopping that process you're no different than a murderer, whether that murder be by cold blood or taking someone with no consciousness off life support when they have a GOOD CHANCE to recover. One act is more gruesome but the end result is the same isnt it?

If you want to call yourself a feminist, go right ahead but I will not be a part of your cult, A true feminist does not change herself but seeks to change society's view against her. If you really want to change yourself then get a tubal litigation instead. I hear the reversal procedure has a high success rate in case you ever wish to have kids in the future.

Everyone has an opinion for a reason, that reason is change. Without change there is no progress. If you agree or disagree with this post tell me why, and give examples.  Unlike many others im open to change my opinion, when proven wrong.



 

Moderated by MSaraTemp on Apr 27, 2012 - 01:53PM
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 2:49AM #2
Mmichael
Posts: 157

Apr 11, 2012 -- 9:30PM, Natiluv wrote:


Before anything, I will say im Pro-Life. I value the life of any human that does not intentionally harm or deliberately puts others in danger. I understand the reasoning behind pro-choicers being for abortion when the mother's life is in danger and I agree with that(So I would be pro - life and pro-choice) but I dont understand why "Pro-CHOICERS" call themselves pro-choicers. You know who you are, arguing only for abortion and not for the other parts of pro choice.

From my view, it seems most "pro-choicers" are selfish. I can see why rape victims would feel an abortion is necessary but does abortion really solve anything in that case? You're blaming an unborn child for the mistakes of the father.

"Pro-Choicers", Ive heard it all, you choose abortion because your life would have to change to accomodate a baby, maybe you already have one or two and are not happy?, you're financially insecure, your body image would change, or you're "just not ready" , etc. There is plenty of protection against an unwanted preganancy such as BC pills, condoms (teach your man to use them correctly), avoiding risky situations and places, or not having sex(especially you teenagers). All of these options can greatly reduce your chance to get pregnant.

Whether we like it or not life does begin at conception, or at least its meant to start life. By stopping that process you're no different than a murderer, whether that murder be by cold blood or taking someone with no consciousness off life support when they have a GOOD CHANCE to recover. One act is more gruesome but the end result is the same isnt it?

If you want to call yourself a feminist, go right ahead but I will not be a part of your cult, A true feminist does not change herself but seeks to change society's view against her. If you really want to change yourself then get a tubal litigation instead. I hear the reversal procedure has a high success rate in case you ever wish to have kids in the future.

Everyone has an opinion for a reason, that reason is change. Without change there is no progress. If you agree or disagree with this post tell me why, and give examples.  Unlike many others im open to change my opinion, when proven wrong.





Here are a few of my thoughts after reading your post-------


I personally don't like the labels "Pro-Life" and "Pro-Choice" when it comes to the issue of abortion rights. I believe those labels have become meaningless. One reason I feel that way is because I have friends who call themselves "Pro-Life" who believe there are certain circumstances in which abortion should be legal. And, I have friends who call themselves "Pro-Choice" who believe there are certain circumstances in which abortion should be illegal. A few of my "Pro-Life" friends believe in even MORE "exceptions" than some of my "Pro-Choice" friends. I think a very small minority of Americans want All Abortions Banned Period. And, I think a very small minority of Americans want All Abortions Legal Period. I believe the vast majority of Americans, including myself, believe there are situations, circumstances, and/or stages of pregnancy in which abortion should be allowed and situations, circumstances, and/or stages of pregnancy in which abortion should Not be allowed. That is why some want Roe v. Wade overturned-----not so All Abortions Will Be Banned, but so each state can decide, through elected representatives, which situations, circumstances, and/or stages of pregnancy will abortion be allowed or not allowed.
You also don't like the label "Pro-Choice" but I don't know what you mean by, "you are not for the other parts of Pro-Choice".  I have no idea what that means. Perhaps it is meant to be similar to the argument that many "Pro-Lifers" are not "Pro-Life" when it comes to capital punishment or war.


You say that abortion is "no different than murder". That is your opinion/belief/view, but it is not a "fact". You may disagree and think it IS a fact, but it is not a fact, and you saying so does not make it so. Even before Roe v. Wade, in the states where abortion was illegal, women who had abortions and people who performed those abortions, were not charged with murder.


I'm glad you are "open to changing your opinion", but I don't feel a need to try and change your belief. And you also have every right to vote only for political candidates who share your view on abortion. So do I. And, so does every American. This has been a very divisive political issue for 40 years now and 40 years from now that may still be true. I personally think the day will come when, because of "abortion pills", there will be fewer and fewer "abortion clinics" and this issue will become much more "private" than it is now. And, unless we enact laws that allow the government into women's medicine cabinets at home, I think this will become a more "personal/family" situation and much less of a "public debate". Time will tell. Thanks for your post.


 

Moderated by MSaraTemp on Apr 27, 2012 - 01:55PM
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 1:00PM #3
JRT
Posts: 340


It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a "person". When they unite to form a zygote it certainly is alive. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person. Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I chose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week.



Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- identical twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with? Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?



These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Sometimes two eggs are fertilized to form non-identical twins. Once again, let us call them Mary and Margaret. Rarely the two zygotes merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a "chimera". Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?



These very serious questions of personhood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person. Is there a more reasonable understanding? I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester. For this reason I am against abortion beyond the twentieth week. Otherwise I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare.


the floggings will continue until morale improves
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 7:25PM #4
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,501

Natiluv:  Before anything, I will say im Pro-Life.


I gathered from the thread title.


"Pro-Choicers", Ive heard it all, you choose abortion because your life would have to change to accomodate a baby, maybe you already have one or two and are not happy?, you're financially insecure, your body image would change, or you're "just not ready" , etc.


So it's MORE moral to grow up with a family that resents you, can't feed you, etc.?  You may have liked your childhood.  Not everyone does.  Some people should not have children, period.  My family tree should've been pruned back several branches back.


Whether we like it or not life does begin at conception


But it's not really about life at all.  The microbes infecting you during a sickness are alive, but you'll still take that antibiotic, won't you?  When you discuss abortion with a pro-lifer, you start to get the impression that SENTIENCE or ENSOULMENT (depending on the level of religious interference) is the REAL issue here.


Sadly, there is no biological reason to suggest an undifferentiated cluster of cells (or even the first fused cell at all) is sentient, as that requires a certain level of complexity (unless you're an animist, and even rocks and air can be sentient based on magic logic).  For the religiously inclined, very few can find theological rationales.  Buddhism may be incredibly close, but in terms of the religions of Abraham, you only count when you're born, and you're not given an identity until later than that (historically, anyway).


By stopping that process you're no different than a murderer


Do you feel so when you eat?


Please show your mastery of biology to explain how an unhatched duckling and a human embryo differ so much that at the same stage of development, a human is sentient but the unhatched duckling is not.  On what basis would a human at that level of complexity be superior?



 

Moderated by MSaraTemp on Apr 27, 2012 - 01:56PM
Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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3 years ago  ::  May 23, 2012 - 11:22AM #5
Twysters
Posts: 3

I believe there is a time when interference with a woman's choice to become a mother or not become a mother is not at the descretion of anyone besides the woman who finds herself pregnant. That period of time is very short, perhaps 8-10 weeks.


What troubles me the most about this debate is that while we are squabbling about weather or not abotions should be allowed or not allowed, millions of 4-5-6 month old babies are being destroyed without regard to THEIR perspective.


Some conditions are not known until a good deal of time has passed and those are the domain of the parents and their dr.


There has to be a reasonable amount of sanity and birth control hormones are certainly just as much of an abortion as late term termination, so technically many so called pro-lifers are aborting every day while this stalemate debate is frozen in a place that allows real babies, with concious awareness that they are alive to be destroyed.


I guess my opinion on this is as follows; If it looks like a baby and moves like a baby than it is probably a baby. If it is indestinguishable from a fish or a frog, than it is a zygote and not a baby; which can be loved for the child it will become or terminated before it becomes a child. 


 

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 3:11AM #6
Justme333
Posts: 1,101

Apr 11, 2012 -- 9:30PM, Natiluv wrote:


Before anything, I will say im Pro-Life. I value the life of any human that does not intentionally harm or deliberately puts others in danger. I understand the reasoning behind pro-choicers being for abortion when the mother's life is in danger and I agree with that(So I would be pro - life and pro-choice) but I dont understand why "Pro-CHOICERS" call themselves pro-choicers. You know who you are, arguing only for abortion and not for the other parts of pro choice.

 




Except your premise about pro-choicers not really being for choice is wrong.  Those who call themselves Pro-choice are just that - pro choice.  They believe that the decision to carry the pregnancy to term, carry the pregnancy and offer the baby for adoption. or terminate the pregnancy should be the choice of the woman, and involve the woman, her doctor, maybe her family, and maybe her clergy, but no one else.  Pro-choicers do not believe that termination is a forgone conclusion and also believe that no one should force a woman to  have an abortion, nor should anyone force a woman to carry the pregnancy. No one is *for abortion*, some are *for choice* and that is why they call themselves pro-choice.


Justme

"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."  Will Rogers

"Give to those who ask, and don't turn away from those who want to borrow."  Matthew 5:42

"Charity is no substitute for justice withheld."         St. Augustine

"Your love for God is only as great as the love you have for the person you love least."  Dorothy Day

"If you want peace, work for justice." Pope Paul VI
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