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Switch to Forum Live View NH Bill Requires Doctors To Give Women False Information
6 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 11:43AM #141
Girlchristian
Posts: 13,685

Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:34AM, Do_unto_others wrote:


Mar 19, 2012 -- 4:41PM, Girlchristian wrote:

Then what you're really saying is that you have no problem with the woman being forced to have an ultrasound done in order to get an abortion if it's PP making her do so



MM can (and has) defend himself. But your post is so deranged it's hared to get a grasp on any logic it may have contained in your head.


PP does not "MAKE" people have unnecessary medical procedures. If a doctor recommends having a medical procedure done, and the woman agrees to having it done, it is NOT "force".


WE, meanwhile, are discussing a forced, required procedure, done AGAINST the woman's wishes (and her doctor's advice) that NO doctor has recommended. The forced procedure, and the script required to be read are both creations of uber-rightwing religious legislators that clearly care NOTHING for the woman's wishes.


Disingenuousness at its best (worst).




DUO you are the one being disigenous. According to the law, the woman must have the ultrasound in order to get the abortion, but if she doesn't want the ultrasound then she can refuse to have it done, however that means she can't have the abortion. IF she consents then she's made the decision to allow the procedure in order to get what she wants, which means she's not being forced. (Women go through this all the time, we have to consent to getting a pap smear even though it's not needed in order to get a prescription for birth control because doctors have decided that's the easiest way to make sure women are getting an exam THEY have decided she should get for her own well being)


Disagree with the law all you want as I do, but at least be honest about what it actually says and stop comparing it to rape--an act that women DO NOT consent to.

Moderated by Merope on Mar 31, 2012 - 02:46AM
"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 11:44AM #142
Girlchristian
Posts: 13,685

Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:39AM, Do_unto_others wrote:


Mar 19, 2012 -- 6:21PM, arielg wrote:


As far as I am concerned, all this idiotic hyperbole aboute being "raped" and all the proceedures required to get an abortion, stems from the absurdity of the Supreme Court decision to divide pregnancy into "trimesters" and to outlaw some periods and not others.  It is a totally arbitrary division that creates all this  confusion. It is based on the  notion that a fetus suddenly becomes  a "citizen" at a certain point,  with all the rights of citizenship and has to be defended as such.



So much mmis-/dis-information, it astounds us. No fetus has any "rights" until birth.



So then a woman in the US can have an abortion at any time for any reason? (In other countries they can, but not here because our laws state the fetus does have rights after viability)

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 11:44AM #143
Do_unto_others
Posts: 11,942

Mar 19, 2012 -- 7:39PM, mountain_man wrote:


Mar 19, 2012 -- 6:21PM, arielg wrote:

As far as I am concerned, all this idiotic hyperbole aboute being "raped" and all the proceedures required to get an abortion, stems from the absurdity of the Supreme Court decision....


No, it has to do with politicians with a religious agenda trying to prevent women from having control over their own bodies.


The fetus is certainly a human being and aborting is an abomination.....


If you believe that, then don't have an abortion. If someone else believes differently; it's none of your business.





+ 1.


I'd 'plus it' a thousand times if I could. Why some people believe they have the right to make these decisions FOR OTHER PEOPLE just baffles me. Religious busybody-ness seems rampant in America these days, sadly.


Whatever happened to the religious freedoms of the women being raped by the State and being LIED to by the State/religous frightwing politicians? Don't THEY have freedom of conscience anymore? Any right to the security of the person? To body integrity?


O how the (formerly) mighty have fallen.

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6 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 11:48AM #144
Do_unto_others
Posts: 11,942

Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:21AM, Girlchristian wrote:


Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:14AM, Do_unto_others wrote:


You can't "kill" something that has not been BORN.


 



If that were true then our laws would allow abortion for any reason up until the point of birth, but they don't.





You, as usual, conflate terminating a pregnancy with killing someone. No wonder we are arguing - we aren't even talking about the same thing.


So, howzabout this: if you don't want to have an abortion, then by all means, don't have one. And then stay out of other people's lives, business and bodies.

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6 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 11:56AM #145
Do_unto_others
Posts: 11,942

Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:43AM, Girlchristian wrote:


DUO you are the one being disigenous. According to the law, the woman must have the ultrasound in order to get the abortion, but if she doesn't want the ultrasound then she can refuse to have it done, however that means she can't have the abortion.



I know this and understand it perfectly well. This is the very definition of COERSION. It is State-sponsored shaming and blackmail. The woman has the right to an abortion (apparently with certain trimestrial limitations). The State is now - BECAUSE OF THIS LAW that you so vociferously defend, despite your claim to the contrary - imposing an UNNECESSARY and UNWANTED addtional medical procedure in order to get something she has a Constitutional right to. And, that UNNECESSARY and UNWANTED addtional medical procedure is the very definition of RAPE - unwanted vaginal penetration.


Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:43AM, Girlchristian wrote:

IF she consents then she's made the decision to allow the procedure in order to get what she wants, which means she's not being forced.



No, G"C", she has been COERCED into agreeing to have an UNNECESSARY and UNWANTED addtional medical procedure in order to get something she has a Constitutional right to. That is not "consent". It is blackmail.


Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:43AM, Girlchristian wrote:


Disagree with the law all you want as I do



It is clear that you do NOT "disagree" with the law, and you present much evidence to the contrary. You vocally support it. Heck, you don't even agree that the procedure is rape, and that the lies being required ft doctors are lies.


Unwanted vaginal penetration is rape, no matter how many times you type that it isn't.

Moderated by Merope on Mar 31, 2012 - 02:48AM
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 11:59AM #146
Do_unto_others
Posts: 11,942

Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:44AM, Girlchristian wrote:

So then a woman in the US can have an abortion at any time for any reason? (In other countries they can, but not here because our laws state the fetus does have rights after viability)




I've never said any such thing and you well know it.


All you can do is focus on the fetus and you completely, UTTERLY ignore the woman, as do these vile GOP politicians. You can join them in the "unbelieved" heap.

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6 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 12:07PM #147
Girlchristian
Posts: 13,685

Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:59AM, Do_unto_others wrote:


Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:44AM, Girlchristian wrote:

So then a woman in the US can have an abortion at any time for any reason? (In other countries they can, but not here because our laws state the fetus does have rights after viability)




I've never said any such thing and you well know it.


You said that no fetus has any rights until birth, which is not true. The fetus does, indeed, have rights before birth. The law states that after viability (22 weeks) then there must be a compelling reason for trumping that fetus' right to life for the woman's. One can't abort a fetus at 7 months simply because one decides that one no longer wants to be pregnant, BECAUSE the fetus has rights too.


All you can do is focus on the fetus and you completely, UTTERLY ignore the woman, as do these vile GOP politicians. You can join them in the "unbelieved" heap.


Not true at all, but whatever.





"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 12:15PM #148
Girlchristian
Posts: 13,685

Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:48AM, Do_unto_others wrote:


Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:21AM, Girlchristian wrote:


Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:14AM, Do_unto_others wrote:


You can't "kill" something that has not been BORN.


 



If that were true then our laws would allow abortion for any reason up until the point of birth, but they don't.





You, as usual, conflate terminating a pregnancy with killing someone. No wonder we are arguing - we aren't even talking about the same thing.


So, howzabout this: if you don't want to have an abortion, then by all means, don't have one. And then stay out of other people's lives, business and bodies.





The definition of 'kill' is to cause death or deprive of life. Like it or not, that fetus is a human life and when one 'terminates' it one is causing death or depriving it of life. This is something that most pro-choice folks acknowledge--abortion is the killing of a human life. Just because that life doesn't have the legal rights that a 'person' does does not mean that it's not still a human life. It's why many pro-choicers preface their beliefs with "I'm personally against abortion, but don't think I have the right to tell someone else they can't do it." If there was no killing or taking of life involved then they wouldn't be 'personally against it.'

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 1:12PM #149
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:40AM, Do_unto_others wrote:

It doesn't seem that G"C" understands coersion very well.


I think she does, but desperately is trying to keep it from applying in this case.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 1:18PM #150
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Mar 20, 2012 -- 11:43AM, Girlchristian wrote:

DUO you are the one being disigenous. According to the law, the woman must have the ultrasound in order to get the abortion, but if she doesn't want the ultrasound then she can refuse to have it done, however that means she can't have the abortion.


That is a classic example of coercion. This is of the most reprehensible kind of coercion; religious.

Disagree with the law all you want as I do, but at least be honest about what it actually says and stop comparing it to rape--an act that women DO NOT consent to.


The law is an egregious example of religious coercion. Religious extremists are trying to force a woman to do something against her will. How can you not recognize that? Why are you defending it? It is rape; an unwanted sexual assault.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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