This thread is being moved to the Abortion Debate board-it has deviated from a "pure" discussion of Christianity
Well; since I have no more clue what constitutes Dave's definition of an impure discussion of Christianity than a Russian poisoned by cheap vodka tainted with fall-out from Chernobyl, I'm off this thread.
Only a selfish, unmerciful person would kill the baby to save oneself.
And the child's daddy should have no say in the loss of his wife?
Speaking as a Christian husband, my wife's wishes are subordinate to mine; and had you been a "true Christian" you would have known that.
*****Yes, the husband has the final say, but if he were a "real Christian," he would agree that the baby should be saved, right? So I assumed that both he and the wife would be in agreement on that.
Therefore; if my wife's life is to be lost in bringing a child of ours into the world, then I decree that the child die and not my wife because for one: I think it's cruel to bring a child into the world without its mommy: or what the hell's the use in getting a wife pregnant in the first place if she's not to be a mom?
*****Or, what the hell's the use in getting her pregnant if you're going to kill the baby? And I think if you'd ask that child later on in life (if you allowed it to live) if he regrets being alive because he has no mommy, he would say that he did NOT regret being alive. After all, he would have a loving FATHER to take care of him! (Right, Dad?)
And two: I am not about to sacrifice the love of my life to save the life of a total stranger. As long as she's alive we can try for another baby; but if she's dead; we can't. My God you are so callous and insensitive!
*****YOU are the one who is callous and insensitive! Good God! "A total stranger" you say.
Wives are not baby mills; they are first and foremost somebody's home companion (Gen 2:18). I didn't marry my best girl expecting her to pump out babies for me; no, I married her because I didn't want to spend the rest of my life alone and unloved in the world and now you're content to take her away from me? I just wish I was at liberty on Beliefnet to use the appropriate expletives to express exactly what I think of the likes of you and your anti Christian-home attitude.
*****I wish I could, also, call you what I think of you.
...and the USA constitution should so define "life" and "death""
And what gives you the right to enshire your ancient hateful mythology into public law?
You wonder why we detest religous fanaticism? There's ONE example.
BTW, If you believe your favorite book of fables your god is the all time greatest abortionist. It killed EVERY fetus in one act of "love for its children"
The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe. The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.
When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
Only a selfish, unmerciful person would kill the baby to save oneself.
And the child's daddy should have no say in the loss of his wife?
Speaking as a Christian husband, my wife's wishes are subordinate to mine; and had you been a "true Christian" you would have known that.
Therefore; if my wife's life is to be lost in bringing a child of ours into the world, then I decree that the child die and not my wife because for one: I think it's cruel to bring a child into the world without its mommy; and two: what the hell's the use in getting a wife pregnant in the first place if she's not to be a mom? and three: I am not about to sacrifice the love of my life to save the life of a total stranger. As long as she's alive we can try for another baby; but if she's dead; we can't.
My God you are so callous and insensitive! Wives are not baby mills; they are first and foremost somebody's home companion (Gen 2:18). I didn't marry my best girl expecting her to pump out babies for me; no, I married her because I didn't want to spend the rest of my life alone and unloved in the world and now you're content to take her away from me? I just wish I was at liberty on Beliefnet to use the appropriate expletives to express exactly what I think of the likes of you and your anti Christian-home attitude.
...and the USA constitution should so define "life" and "death"
A new bumper sticker in the South: "yo momma believed in the right to life...dahlin'!
Dr. Seuss' Horton quote: " A person is a person ...no matter how small!"
And there is some guidance in the Bible:...
Exodus 21 22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
A. Luke 1 41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Here an unborn "fetus" is referred to as a "baby". The greek word "BREPHOS" refers to a baby, whether he/she is unborn or not.
B. Luke 2:12, the angels announce to the shepherds in the field that they will find the "baby" Jesus wrapped and lying in a manger.
The word "baby" here is "BREPHOS" again.
2) The Bible makes no distinction, and has no separate word for a baby who is UNBORN versus a baby who is BORN.
Psalm 139....For the director of music. Of David. A psalm. 13 For you created my inmost being; (spirit and soul)...created in the image (spirit) and likeness (soul/character) of God you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.(body...fetus...embyro) 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; (body+soul+spirit) your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; (all knowing) all the days ordained for me (born or unborn?) were written in your book before one of them (days) came to be.
INTENTIONAL and UNJUSTIFIED abortion stops the existence of a "little child".
Mark 10 (NIV)....The Little Children and Jesus 13 People were bringing little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not HINDER them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child (faith and trust) will never enter it.” 16 And he took the children in his arms, placed his hands on them and blessed them.
Isaiah 49 (NIV) 5 And now the LORD says— he who formed me in the womb 15 “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! 18 Lift up your eyes and look around; all your children gather and come to you. As surely as I live,” declares the LORD, “you will wear them all as ornaments; you will put them on, like a bride.
John 16:21 A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world.
I would have to say that abortion is in some way allowed by the God of Abraham, regardless of one be Christian or Jew. The medical term for miscarriage is spontaneous abortion. The term abort simply means end A miscarriage generally happens when the body detects a problem with the fetus (so one could surmise that a god had a hand in it; being the creator and all. With modern science able to detect a deformity in a fetus, would it be any different for the parent(s) to choose not to bring a child in the world that would require 24 hour care, and ruin the family financially? Would that be any different than say if the body naturally ended the pregnancy?
*****Yes, it would be different. Where is the mercy in terminating a pregnancy because the child won't be "normal"? There are many parents of Mongoloid children, for example, who love their children in spite of their handicaps. Are schizophrenics, epileptics, children with ADHD or missing limbs any LESS human? Or would our compassion and mercy dictate that we lovingly care for these children so that they can have as much of a normal life as possible?
This OP has so many roads to travel down on the rules of religion versus common sense, and personal opinions.... And really... it doesn't belong on this board.
I am interested in your thoughts.
Pam
Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
Now, I do not know the Christian faith very well, but I am curious if there is any justification for this apparent change? Something scriptural or by the church or something? I know much of the Jewish law does not apply because Paul said something about how "the cross took away the law"...but is it accepted in (some parts of?) Christianity that it IS acceptable to take an innocent human life to reduce the risk of imminent harm to yourself?
If Christians confine themselves to the texts the use as their official documents, this is one of a many moral questions that is not answered directly.
Christians would then have to turn to the Hebrew scriptures, but I can't think of any guidence on your life and death scenerio.
It is the case, though, that Jewish law does not equate the death of a fetus with a death of a human being. It is considered lost property:
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.''
If I'm not mistaken, you skipped the most important part of that passage.
"But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow." (Exodus 21: 22-25)
The aborting of the pregnancy is viewed as murder, and the person responsible for it, even if it was an accident, would have to give his own life.
I am interested in your thoughts.
Pam
Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
It seems that about 80% of Christian pro-lifers tend to echo "only when the mother's life is in danger" - but I have hit a roadblock trying to explain this to myself; I know in Jewish law it is forbidden to take an innocent person's life to save your own (although you can kill a guilty person trying to kill you, say an enemy soldier). But by Jewish law, if your car is headed towards a tree (that will kill you) and the only alternative is to swerve into a little girl on the playground (killing her), you are NOT allowed to kill the innocent person to save your own life.
Now, I do not know the Christian faith very well, but I am curious if there is any justification for this apparent change? Something scriptural or by the church or something? I know much of the Jewish law does not apply because Paul said something about how "the cross took away the law"...but is it accepted in (some parts of?) Christianity that it IS acceptable to take an innocent human life to reduce the risk of imminent harm to yourself?
I hope somebody will be able to clear this up for me, thank you.
Also, I apologise, I am not trying to be passive-aggressive or start an abortion flamewar - this is just a genuine need for me right now.
I believe that true Christian thought on the matter is that we should not take an innocent life, period. If a mother has to give up her life for her baby, so be it. The Bible teaches that she has the solid hope of a resurrection.
The "cross" fulfilled the Law and we are not under the Law any more, but the spirit of the Law remains. Jesus said that the entire Law could be condensed into two commandments: Love Jehovah with one's whole being, and love one's neighbor as oneself. If we love God we will follow His principles of love and mercy, and if we love our "neighbor" (which is anybody) we will also act with love and mercy. It's not hard to figure out what should happen to that innocent baby, if a person follows those two commandments. Only a selfish, unmerciful person would kill the baby to save oneself.
I am interested in your thoughts.
Pam
Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
