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Switch to Forum Live View If You had to Make a Choice: Killed or Tortured
3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2011 - 1:36PM #11
REteach
Posts: 14,169

I think the point of society is to mitigate the personal.  If someone kills or harms a loved one, it is natural that the response is visceral and violent and can easily escalate.  Once a society tolerates torture for "good" reasons, how long before the line blurs and what is now a good reason used to be considered a bad reason?

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2011 - 3:46PM #12
shirleyj227
Posts: 10,973

May 16, 2011 -- 12:35PM, Ebon wrote:


May 16, 2011 -- 8:27AM, Dostojevsky wrote:

Here's two extremes if life. We do not wish it on anybody. But if I had to choose, I'd choose being killed anytime. ?*



 If torture came with a finite duration, endure this much and you can go free, I daresay many would be able to resist it but one of the terrors of torture is that you're unaware of the duration or even if there is one. That all you know is pain and, as far as you're concerned, that may be all you will ever know. So I think, in that regard, I'd choose death.




Touture is always finite. It will end in death if it does not stop. Why choose death when it may stop?


Shirley

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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2011 - 3:49PM #13
shirleyj227
Posts: 10,973

May 17, 2011 -- 1:36PM, REteach wrote:


I think the point of society is to mitigate the personal.  If someone kills or harms a loved one, it is natural that the response is visceral and violent and can easily escalate.  Once a society tolerates torture for "good" reasons, how long before the line blurs and what is now a good reason used to be considered a bad reason?




The "good" reason stops at one degree of seperation .


Shirley

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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2011 - 10:54PM #14
IDBC
Posts: 4,449

Howdy Dost


May 16, 2011 -- 8:27AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


I read about Demjanjuk sentence of 5 years in prison for assisting in murder of many Jews in Sobibor, Poland.  -



 The prosecution has been unable to tie Demjanjuk personally to any specific  crime of violence. Instead, his alleged crime consists of having been  present as a low-ranked guard at camp which sole purpose, it is alleged,  was the extermination of Jews.



On 12 May 2011, 91-year-old Demjanjuk was convicted by a German court of
complicity in the murder of over 28,000 Jews whilst serving at Sobibor, and was sentenced to 5 years in jail.[1]However, the court ordered him released pending appeal. He is now living free, in a German nursing home. The prime purpose of Sobibor was for the extemination of Jews. 


 


May 16, 2011 -- 8:27AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


 Any guard who found this activity  objectionable, the prosecution’s argument goes, could have deserted his  post. However, the mere presence as a guard at Sobibor, or any of the  other extermination camps, has UNTIL NOW NOT been considered punishable.



What activity was objectionable? 


Why do you think it is that Ivan was chosen to be punished? 



May 16, 2011 -- 8:27AM, Dostojevsky wrote:



Tonight I read in The Nation that nothing's changed either in Abu Ghraib or other prisons.

"The Iraq War Logs proved changes had not been made. And now, with  this new report out from The Investigative Fund at The Nation Institute  and PBS’s Need to Know there is further confirmation that  perpetrators of atrocities continue to go unpunished, those who allow  for systemic abuse to continue have not been held accountable, and  nothing has really changed since the Abu Ghraib scandal."



Does Pres. Obama the Nobel Peace Prize winner know about the continued torture of prisioners in Abu Gharaib?  Should he be held accountable for the continuing torture? 


It is my understanding that Abu Gharib is under the control of Iraq. 


May 16, 2011 -- 8:27AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Will those guards and many others who are involved be liable one day when political scenarios change?



I don't know, I am not a psychic or a prophet.  But I do recall that in the past there were court martials for some of the guards and they were convicted and punished. 


 


May 16, 2011 -- 8:27AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


 Are they uneasy yet feel it is a job?



Is that a rhetorical question? 


May 16, 2011 -- 8:27AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Obeying the orders like Demjanjuk?



Wochhere thay obeying orders like Demjanjuk? 


Or was that another rhetorical question? 


May 16, 2011 -- 8:27AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


These two scenarios made me think about torture and killing.


I can't stand pain. Can't imagine anyone can. You endure it because you have no choice, but I have heard of some women who plead with their husbands to kill them on the visiting days as they can not endure. Would not be easy to commit suicide and  THEY would make sure that there's nothing around that you could.


 


But other people can stand pain.  Some people even inflict pain on themselves. Cutters and masochist for example.  There are people who live with a variety of chronic pain everyday.  Some people are able to withstand pain better than others.  A determined person can find a way to commit suicide. 


May 16, 2011 -- 8:27AM, Dostojevsky wrote:



Here's two extremes if life. We do not wish it on anybody. But if I had to choose, I'd choose being killed anytime. ?*


www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20063366... 



It would depend on how much pain was being inflicted and for how long. 


I could not imagine my being in a Nazi concentration for more than six months and not committing suicide.  But people did it.  


May 16, 2011 -- 8:27AM, Dostojevsky wrote:

 

In letter, CIA chief undercuts role of torture in search for Osama bin Laden 



I really don't know how much of a role torture was used in the search for Osama bin Laden. 


I don't think I could endure much torture.  I think that if I were being tortured I would tell both the truth and lies to stop being tortured.  But just because I would does not mean that everyone would.  I have heard of cases in which people have endured extreme tortures and have not confessed to falsehoods or revealed the truth.  


It is my understanding that information that led to the capture of OLB was not gained by torture or enhanced interrogation. 


It is my understanding that Chocolate Jesus, the winner of the Nobel Prize for Peace has forbidden the use of torture and extrodinary renditons. 


Have A Thinking Day And Avoid Torture 

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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3 years ago  ::  May 18, 2011 - 6:06AM #15
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,152

I happen to read about Demjanjuk and Abu-Ghraib and torture one after the other and with these two scenarios I wondered how would I or anybody else cope with torture or be shot to death. And if one did have a choice, how would we choose.


From the Court proceedings I read Demjanjuk was a guard at the prison. That is the reason  many were surprised as it is the first time that a guard  not involved in killings was convicted. And how does or will that affect young prison guards of America and its allies who are only doing a job be it in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan etc. when the political climate changes. And should I say 'if'.


So while Nazi scientists were whisked away to US to perfect their expertise, they are chasing the little guys who were only doorkeepers.


 

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3 years ago  ::  May 18, 2011 - 8:30AM #16
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

If the prisoner is a masochist, is it really torture? 

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3 years ago  ::  May 18, 2011 - 10:26PM #17
karbie
Posts: 3,329

I mentioned to my pain management doctor years ago that if I could just change my sexual orientation, it wouldn't bother me to be in constant pain. Unfortunately, I don't know how to do that.


Which would I choose? Death. I won't be alive to lie, and I'll finally escape after 27 years of pain without any moral dilemna about suicide.


Water-boarding is ancient and efficent. We all need to breathe. It doesn't leave a mark unless the victim has gotten pneumonia from all the water in their lungs.


The people who ordered torture on "enemy combatants" and our own citizens should be tried for war crimes in the World Court. I've seen the documentaries on the fact we went on using the same methods Saddam used. How can we be viewed as being better, more civilized, or on higher moral grounds when we use the same tools and techniques?


Although I will admit that there are some officials and heads of banks and corporations I think should be "tested" to see if this practice was really torture or not.


In the end, information gained through torture is suspect. There comes a time when pain narrows your world until it is all there is and you will do or say anything that will make it go away or even lessen.


As for the virgins, my son pointed out one day that no one ever said what species those virgins have to be. I'm torn between tigers, gorillas, and wild horses.

"You are letting your opinion be colored by facts again."
'When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you."
these are both from my father.
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3 years ago  ::  May 18, 2011 - 10:40PM #18
REteach
Posts: 14,169

May 17, 2011 -- 3:46PM, shirleyj227 wrote:


Touture is always finite. It will end in death if it does not stop. Why choose death when it may stop?


Shirley



My husband had heart surgery when he was 14--before PCA pumps and better pain management. He can remember 40 years later laying in the hospital bed thinking he would rather be dead.  

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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3 years ago  ::  May 18, 2011 - 11:20PM #19
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

This society is funny. We talk about being dead (or rather, done with this life) as if it's a bad thing.

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3 years ago  ::  May 19, 2011 - 1:11AM #20
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

May 18, 2011 -- 11:20PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


This society is funny. We talk about being dead (or rather, done with this life) as if it's a bad thing.





There are some for whom death and torture are both too good for them. They just need to be placed in a place where they can hurt no one else.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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