Important Announcement

See here for an important message regarding the community which has become a read-only site as of October 31.

 
Post Reply
Page 5 of 7  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Nebraska Bill Would Make Killing An Abortion Provider Justifiable Homicide
7 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2011 - 11:06PM #41
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Feb 27, 2011 -- 10:37PM, belleo wrote:

....That’s one of the signs of a troubled conscience: a refusal to look our choices in the eye.....


Exactly! Instead of looking their choices in the eye the pro birth crowd hides behind religion and it's blind, thoughtless, demands. They blindly follow these demands and then have the nerve to talk about morals. If you blindly follow some demand, you have no morals. To have actual morals means making a choice to do right or wrong.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2011 - 11:08PM #42
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Feb 27, 2011 -- 10:46PM, belleo wrote:

I also know a dear soul who said no to abortion . The baby was born healthy . That is not what the medical profession had told her . She decided at the time she had  lived her life and if she died ...well she didn't . I suppose it depends on your spiritual orientation . Mine wasn't all that great at one time and I didn't choose life . Has it haunted me ?  I'd say it did


Such is life. That does not give you the right to make the decision for other women.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 12:40AM #43
MSaraTemp
Posts: 800

Feb 27, 2011 -- 9:29PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Feb 27, 2011 -- 9:26PM, mountain_man wrote:

Feb 27, 2011 -- 7:40PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

There is no inconsistency -- at least as moral matters -- in opposing abortion, and favoring the death penalty.


There is, but those that are pro birth are unable to see the inconsistency. If you honestly value life, then a life is a life, all lives are equal. Just because you do not like the person does not mean you can devalue their life.


Then, by your own reasoning, it is just as inconsistent to oppose the death penalty and be pro-choice as it is to oppose abortion and support the death penalty.


The term/label of "Pro-CHOICE" is only connected to "Women's Reproductive Rights" and nothing else.
For women to decide first-- if they want children or not.
2nd, if they do want children, then how many they want/desire and can afford to care for.
3rd, to space their children how they see fit be it 2 yrs apart or 5 or 10, it's their choice.
And 4th, when to stop reproducing and calling it a day.

It never was related to the Death Penalty at all.

Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 7:02AM #44
DotNotInOz
Posts: 6,839

Feb 27, 2011 -- 2:13PM, MSaraTemp wrote:

That's nothing.  Of course they, in 2004, made a saint of an Italian woman age 39, and a pediatrician at the time of her death in 1962.  She died from untreated uterine fibroid tumor one week after giving birth to her 4th child.  Her chances of survival would have been greater had she undergone an abortion earlier in her pregnancy but she refused. 


Her "personal choice" to kill herself left her 4 children with one being a newborn, now motherless and a husband without his life's partner. 

So much for being "pro-life" towards the living.
But, that was her "personal choice" and the RCC made her a martyr for the Anti-abortion fraction.




Okay, well, nutty though this will sound (and it does to me, too, having been amicably divorced from RCism for about four decades), the RCC's position as well as this woman's decision makes perfect sense within the Catholic context.


Dipping back into my mental archives, one's first duty in life is to carry out God's wishes as presented in scripture and via the mandates of the RCC. Thus, this Italian saint chose absolutely the right thing in deciding that she must sacrifice her own life if it came to that to better ensure her fetus would survive to term and be born.


This is a situation where I expect her children and husband feel very blessed to have had a mother and wife who was ultimately granted sainthood. That would be a distinct honor for a Catholic family.


Yes, it's impossible to comprehend how there is anything meritorious in such a decision when you're non-Catholic, but to a Catholic, what this woman did would be regarded as not only absolutely right but a wonderful sacrifice, demonstrating her intense devotion to God as well as her love for her unborn child over herself.

Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 9:16AM #45
Iwantamotto
Posts: 9,234

Dipping back into my mental archives, one's first duty in life is to carry out God's wishes as presented in scripture and via the mandates of the RCC. Thus, this Italian saint chose absolutely the right thing in deciding that she must sacrifice her own life if it came to that to better ensure her fetus would survive to term and be born.



Parents who would sacrifice their lives for kids who can't take care of themselves haven't done the kid any favors.  Now the kids get to die a long, malingering death.  But, hey, God knows best, right?  That's why God invented the concept of animals having children even when there aren't enough resources -- oh, wait, no, I don't have that right ... He ACTUALLY told the animals to give it a rest.  We seem to be the only species to be dumb enough to have kids we can't raise.


but to a Catholic, what this woman did would be regarded as not only absolutely right but a wonderful sacrifice



I can grasp she thought it was wonderful.  I can also grasp that long-term thinking is not her strong suit, is it?

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 10:02AM #46
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Feb 27, 2011 -- 11:02PM, mountain_man wrote:


Feb 27, 2011 -- 9:43PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Nope, by your own reasoning. And, ironically....


Ironically, you don't get it.... again.





Of course I get it.


The argument I'm objecting to hinges upon two basic assumptions. That a fetus isn't not, or isn't "really" human life, and that the death penatly is about revenge.


But, from another point of view, a fetus is human life, and the death penalty is about the logical consequences for deliberate actions certain people conciously decided to take.


Therefore, again, one can -- on moral grounds -- oppose abortion and support the death penalty, and still be consistent.


Also, it would be great sometime if you actually tried to debate ideas, rather than pulling a sentence or two out of somebody's post and leveling an "I know you are, but what am I?" response.

Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 10:56AM #47
Cesmom
Posts: 5,740

Feb 26, 2011 -- 3:58PM, IreneAdler wrote:


 



From article:



Christensen insisted that his measure is not intended to target abortion providers. Like Jensen, Christensen claimed that his bill is merely meant to allow pregnant women to defend their unborn children without fear of prosecution. "LB 232," he said, "is really nothing more than an attempt to make sure a pregnant woman is not unnecessarily charged with a crime for using force to protect her unborn child from someone who means to bring harm to her unborn children."



This sounds like the most contrived piece of baloney I have ever heard. Is there a need (either legal or otherwise) for a pregnant woman to have legislation protecting her in the defense of her unborn child?  When has a pregnant woman ever been charged with a crime whilst 'using force' to protect her unborn child? Never heard of such a thing.


 Did I wake up in the land of the stupid this morning?


Irene



 




Not saying that this is truly his motivation, but apparently, there is a history of exactly such a thing...


 


Sen. Mark Christensen of Imperial, who introduced the bill (LB232), said it was prompted by a Michigan case in which a pregnant woman carrying quadruplets was found guilty of manslaughter for killing her boyfriend after he punched her in the stomach, causing a miscarriage. She was sentenced to five to 20 years as an habitual offender.


A Michigan Appeals Court later overturned the case.


Christensen said he did not want to see a woman in Nebraska go through the trauma of losing a baby, only to be prosecuted and punished for trying to protect it.


 

Our need to learn should always outweigh our need to be right

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

More people would learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 11:25AM #48
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Feb 28, 2011 -- 7:02AM, DotNotInOz wrote:

Okay, well, nutty though this will sound (and it does to me, too, having been amicably divorced from RCism for about four decades), the RCC's position as well as this woman's decision makes perfect sense within the Catholic context.....


They can believe that all they want. The problem is that the RCC MUST keep it's beliefs in it's churches and out of our laws. They have no right to even attempt to force their beliefs on anyone through our laws. They need to stay out of it.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 11:26AM #49
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Feb 28, 2011 -- 10:02AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Of course I get it.....


We've had this discussion before. You didn't get it then and you won't get it now, so I'm not going to waste my time with it.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2011 - 11:33AM #50
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Feb 28, 2011 -- 10:56AM, Cesmom wrote:

Not saying that this is truly his motivation, but apparently, there is a history of exactly such a thing...


Sen. Mark Christensen of Imperial, who introduced the bill (LB232), said it was prompted by a Michigan case in which a pregnant woman carrying quadruplets was found guilty of manslaughter for killing her boyfriend after he punched her in the stomach, causing a miscarriage. She was sentenced to five to 20 years as an habitual offender.


A Michigan Appeals Court later overturned the case.


Christensen said he did not want to see a woman in Nebraska go through the trauma of losing a baby, only to be prosecuted and punished for trying to protect it.


Since she is not in prison for that crime then there is no need for the law. This is just another back door attempt to criminalize elective abortion. Women already have the right to protect themselves and any fetus they may be carrying. Also note that this woman was designated as a "habitual offender." That means there is more to the story than we know since she has already been convicted of at least one felony.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 5 of 7  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook