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Switch to Forum Live View Nebraska Bill Would Make Killing An Abortion Provider Justifiable Homicide
3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2011 - 7:40PM #31
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Feb 27, 2011 -- 11:07AM, Ebon wrote:


Feb 26, 2011 -- 5:37PM, Hatman wrote:

What gets me is that in the misplaced zeal to protect the life of a fetus that has yet to draw a breath, they are attempting to invalidate the lives of the living who have drawn hundreds of thousands---if not millions---of breaths. Whaddawanna bet that Mr. Inconsistency is also quite on-board with the death penalty, too? "Protect the unborn! Kill them once they're old enough to piss me off!" With goodwill to all the People- Hatman



Quite. It's the inconsistency that pisses me off. The Catholic church opposes abortion but they also oppose the death penalty and the majority of wars. I don't agree with it but I can respect that, it's an intellectually consistent stance. This, this is just playing games.





There is no inconsistency -- at least as moral matters -- in opposing abortion, and favoring the death penalty.


As legal matters? That's a different matter. But, more on that later.


A fetus is totally innocent and defensless, whereas a convicted murderer is a capable adult who made a concious choice to murder -- and conciously and deliberatly went through with the action of killing another person.


You cannot compare the two -- a fetus and a convicted murderer, and say it is "inconsistent" to wish to save one, and execute the other. It is a classic of an apples-and-oranges scenerio.


Now, as to whether abortion should be illegal, that's a whole other can of worms, and a much more difficult position to defend.


And yes, I think this proposed law is stupid and illogical.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2011 - 8:45PM #32
REteach
Posts: 13,556

Unfortunately being convicted of a crime does not mean you are guilty of it. 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2011 - 9:21PM #33
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Feb 27, 2011 -- 8:45PM, REteach wrote:


Unfortunately being convicted of a crime does not mean you are guilty of it. 





No. Not always.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2011 - 9:26PM #34
mountain_man
Posts: 38,097

Feb 27, 2011 -- 7:40PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

There is no inconsistency -- at least as moral matters -- in opposing abortion, and favoring the death penalty.


There is, but those that are pro birth are unable to see the inconsistency. If you honestly value life, then a life is a life, all lives are equal. Just because you do not like the person does not mean you can devalue their life.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2011 - 9:29PM #35
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Feb 27, 2011 -- 9:26PM, mountain_man wrote:


Feb 27, 2011 -- 7:40PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

There is no inconsistency -- at least as moral matters -- in opposing abortion, and favoring the death penalty.


There is, but those that are pro birth are unable to see the inconsistency. If you honestly value life, then a life is a life, all lives are equal. Just because you do not like the person does not mean you can devalue their life.





Then, by your own reasoning, it is just as inconsistent to oppose the death penalty and be pro-choice as it is to oppose abortion and support the death penalty.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2011 - 9:38PM #36
mountain_man
Posts: 38,097

Feb 27, 2011 -- 9:29PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Then, by your own reasoning....


You mean by your strawman version of my own reasoning....

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2011 - 9:43PM #37
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Feb 27, 2011 -- 9:38PM, mountain_man wrote:


Feb 27, 2011 -- 9:29PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Then, by your own reasoning....


You mean by your strawman version of my own reasoning....





Nope, by your own reasoning. And, ironically, your point, which missed the point, was sort of a strawman anyway.


The death penalty isn't about "not liking" people. It's about the actions they conciously and deliberatly take.


Because a fetus is helpless, and cannot conciously and deliberately take any action, it can therefore not be compared to a grown person who takes the concious and deliberate action to kill somebody.


Therefore, again, there is no inconcistancy in being opposed, morally, to abortion, while supporting the death penatly.


But, as a legal matter, it's much tougher to try to argue that abortion should be illegal. In fact, I would say it's impossible to argue that posistion.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2011 - 10:37PM #38
belleo
Posts: 2,800

"...acy of abortion is dealt with as an aesthetic, not a moral, problem.  That is why, for instance, the person writing this thinks that abortion is the solution to infanticide.  Abortion is private and we are strongly encouraged not to look at what is done.  Infanticide is more public and there is a danger that there might blood or screaming or a tiny corpse visible.


This aesthetic approach to killing people also, by the way, completely dominates our discourse about the death penalty.  That is why we blab about “deterrence” while making sure that there are as few witnesses as possible.  We desire death and lots of it.  But we want it very very tidy, quiet and *clean*.


That’s one of the signs of a troubled conscience: a refusal to look our choices in the eye.


Jesus, through Holy Church, offers us a resolution to the conflict our culture of death feels within its breast: stop choosing death.  This includes both the death of the unborn and the death of the criminal.  No, they are not morally equivalent.  But neither is the death penalty the expression of the mercy of God.  The Church’s teaching seems reasonable to me." By Mark Shea


And I wholeheartedly agree.  Marie

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2011 - 10:46PM #39
belleo
Posts: 2,800

Feb 27, 2011 -- 2:09PM, costrel wrote:


Feb 27, 2011 -- 1:12PM, Roodog wrote:

There was a case where a young lady was beatified because she allowed her attacker to kill her rather than to rape her.


Maria Goretti was 11 years old, and according to her official hagiography, Alessandro Serenelli stabbed her fourteen times because she was putting up a fight as he was trying to rape her. Supposedly Goretti told Serenelli that she would rather die than be raped, but that does not mean that she allowed him to kill her. And even though her official hagiography asserts that she was not raped and died a "virgin-martyr," Bruno Guerri (author of the 1985 book Poor Assassin, Poor Saint: The True Story of Maria Goretti) seems to have found evidence that Serenelli stated afterwards that he did, in fact, rape her, which would seem to imply that he stabbed her to death after he raped her.



I also know a dear soul who said no to abortion . The baby was born healthy . That is not what the medical profession had told her . She decided at the time she had  lived her life and if she died ...well she didn't . I suppose it depends on your spiritual orientation . Mine wasn't all that great at one time and I didn't choose life . Has it haunted me ?  I'd say it did

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2011 - 11:02PM #40
mountain_man
Posts: 38,097

Feb 27, 2011 -- 9:43PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Nope, by your own reasoning. And, ironically....


Ironically, you don't get it.... again.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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