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4 years ago  ::  Oct 30, 2010 - 1:45PM #81
Yavanna
Posts: 3,149

Oct 30, 2010 -- 1:43PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:


Oct 30, 2010 -- 1:26PM, Yavanna wrote:


That's actually why I refuse to go hunting. I don't want to kill an animal directly, but I can with enough effort. The real problem is in cleaning and using the remains, I can't and so I won't hunt.




 


Well, there is a difference between what we would do if we had to in order to survive, and what we want to do. 


 


But I really think most people are like this.  And I really don't blame them.  It's messy, hard work. 




Exactly. I could do a lot in order to survive, but since I'm not in that situation I don't see any reason to needlessly kill. I'm not anti-hunting though, in many cases it's imperative since we've removed so many natural predators. To those who want to hunt in a respectful manner I say more power to them.

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.
- J.R.R. Tolkien
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 30, 2010 - 7:06PM #82
solfeggio
Posts: 9,127

I really don't see where the actual killing of an animal and the subsequent gutting and cleaning and cutting up the meat has anything to do with...well...anything. 


I can understand why a person would be put off by the idea of killing something.  We've been running this cat sanctuary for many years and, inevitably, cats are going to get sick, and we have to take them to the vet to be put to sleep.  And, even though the animal is terminal and suffering, I still feel just terrible watching him/her get that needle and then just...collapse.


And I can easily extrapolate that I'd feel far worse if I deliberately caused the death of an animal that wasn't suffering some terminal illness and was simply going about its business in the wild.


I think that those of us who are not hunters or fishermen would naturally feel that way.


BUT - This feeling does not extend to the buying and eating of supermarket meat from factory farms, where nonhumans suffer a far worse fate than having an injection, or even a bullet to the brain from a hunter's gun and a swift death that way.


People have been eating animals for as long as humans have been around, and in earlier times those same people did have to catch, restrain, kill, gut, and dismember those animals. 


Obviously, it wasn't off-putting in the least, or the practise would not have become so widespread.


So, people say that oh, they couldn't bear to actually kill an animal, and they mean it...and then they go off to the supermarket and buy a leg of lamb or a steak and think nothing of it.


Curious, nes pas?


 

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 30, 2010 - 9:44PM #83
Yavanna
Posts: 3,149

I absolutely support the slaughter of animals when I go to the supermarket!


As for hunting, it is indeed necessary even today for population control. In the United States, this is monitored and licensed by the individual states. Other regions may not need hunting for these practical purposes, but as we've destroyed so much critical habitat and driven out predators, we're needed to restore the role or else face a greater destruction of the environment.

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.
- J.R.R. Tolkien
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 30, 2010 - 10:33PM #84
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Oct 30, 2010 -- 9:44PM, Yavanna wrote:


I absolutely support the slaughter of animals when I go to the supermarket!


As for hunting, it is indeed necessary even today for population control. In the United States, this is monitored and licensed by the individual states. Other regions may not need hunting for these practical purposes, but as we've destroyed so much critical habitat and driven out predators, we're needed to restore the role or else face a greater destruction of the environment.





While, obviously, I'm all for hunting in principle, there are many ways in which it is applied or pursued that I don't agree with.


I can be a purist almost to the point of being snotty, I realize that. However, hunting seems to increasingly be a casual pass-time for people who are continually striving to find more lazy ways and less sporting of doing it (I despise ATVs, and wouldn't be caught dead with a two-way radio, for example) -- or, a way for outfitters to make big money off of wealthy clients who want to be even more lazy and less sporting about it than Joe Six Pack with his ATV and two-way radio.


Anyway, I could go on for a loooooong time with my criticisms of hunting.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2010 - 12:00AM #85
solfeggio
Posts: 9,127

Yeah, Mouse, you're right:  There's hunting...and then there's hunting.


Whilst I confess that I will never understand why anybody would possibly find any pleasure at all in taking an innocent life, I do deplore those people who would actually brag about killing an endangered creature, or who are such lazy or incompetent hunters that they would merely wound an animal and then let it run off to die slowly and painfully. 


And I've read about 'big game' hunters in Africa killing magnificent - and often endangered - animals from the safety of their cars, or having somebody beat the bushes to flush the animal first.  This sort of thing is, to me, anyway, inexcusable and despicable.


As for hunters 'culling' the deer herds - this wouldn't be necessary if the states had left the native species alone to regulate themselves.  Yes, this means wolf packs and coyotes and cougars bringing down the animals, which can be a terrible way for the deer to die, but we cannot dispute what happens in nature.  We may not like it, but that's the way it is.  And those wolves and cougars have to eat, too, after all.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2010 - 2:31AM #86
Yavanna
Posts: 3,149

Oct 31, 2010 -- 12:00AM, solfeggio wrote:


Yeah, Mouse, you're right:  There's hunting...and then there's hunting.


Whilst I confess that I will never understand why anybody would possibly find any pleasure at all in taking an innocent life, I do deplore those people who would actually brag about killing an endangered creature, or who are such lazy or incompetent hunters that they would merely wound an animal and then let it run off to die slowly and painfully. 


And I've read about 'big game' hunters in Africa killing magnificent - and often endangered - animals from the safety of their cars, or having somebody beat the bushes to flush the animal first.  This sort of thing is, to me, anyway, inexcusable and despicable.


As for hunters 'culling' the deer herds - this wouldn't be necessary if the states had left the native species alone to regulate themselves.  Yes, this means wolf packs and coyotes and cougars bringing down the animals, which can be a terrible way for the deer to die, but we cannot dispute what happens in nature.  We may not like it, but that's the way it is.  And those wolves and cougars have to eat, too, after all.





Solf, you don't understand me. As I've said, we eliminated the natural predators. I don't think a wolf, cougar or coyote (the latter not likely, they're scavengers and deal with small prey) taking down a deer is a terrible way to die. It's a circle of life sort of thing.


Your concern for the deer and I'm not sure, but... excusing? The predators is a bit difficult for me to understand. We're talking about wild animals. It's a beautiful thing to see both a deer and wolf in the wild and a beautiful thing to see a predator in action.


Back to my original point, there are no natural predators for us to allow to do their work in the first place. I've said it several times. We have no choice but to fulfill the role ourselves. The territory of the mountain lion is severely diminished as is the timber wolf's. We've recently been successful at re-introducing timber wolves and getting them off the endangered lists, but they will never return to their former range and effect. There are hundreds of thousands of acres, indeed millions, that are without any natural predators and will always be so. The population of animals such as whitetail deer would run rampant to the point of overwhelming the ecosystem and harming other animals if the population was not controlled.


We're in it up to our neck as humans and we simply can't withdraw and let things be. That would be inhumane. The responsible and ethical thing to do is be involved to repair the damage we've done. Yes, without us species wouldn't have gone extinct, but because of us many species have come back from the brink. The environment needs us.

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.
- J.R.R. Tolkien
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2010 - 12:11PM #87
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Oct 30, 2010 -- 7:06PM, solfeggio wrote:


I really don't see where the actual killing of an animal and the subsequent gutting and cleaning and cutting up the meat has anything to do with...well...anything.



 


Because you can actually break it into two big parts.  There is the killing of the animal, and then the cleaning of the dead animal.  The killing is clean, doesn't get mess everywhere, you don't have to stick your hands in guts or anything, and the cleaning, you do.  Look at my avatar lately?  That isn't rasberry jelly he's standing in. 


 


Anyway, it isn't the actual killing that most people seem to have the problem with.  It's cleaning up after themselves. 


 


Oct 30, 2010 -- 7:06PM, solfeggio wrote:


I can understand why a person would be put off by the idea of killing something.  We've been running this cat sanctuary for many years and, inevitably, cats are going to get sick, and we have to take them to the vet to be put to sleep.  And, even though the animal is terminal and suffering, I still feel just terrible watching him/her get that needle and then just...collapse.


And I can easily extrapolate that I'd feel far worse if I deliberately caused the death of an animal that wasn't suffering some terminal illness and was simply going about its business in the wild.



 


I'm sure there are people who are put off by the idea of killing something.  I don't think that everyone is put off by the idea of killing something. 


Oct 30, 2010 -- 7:06PM, solfeggio wrote:


I think that those of us who are not hunters or fishermen would naturally feel that way.



 


Until they got hungry enough. 


 


 


Oct 30, 2010 -- 7:06PM, solfeggio wrote:


So, people say that oh, they couldn't bear to actually kill an animal, and they mean it...and then they go off to the supermarket and buy a leg of lamb or a steak and think nothing of it.


Curious, nes pas?


 




I think these people don't really feel that way.  Instead, they think that they are supposed to feel that way. The predominate religions and philosophies out their are the ones that espouse non-violence.  I just don't think that encompasses our nature. 


 


Oct 31, 2010 -- 12:00AM, solfeggio wrote:


As for hunters 'culling' the deer herds - this wouldn't be necessary if the states had left the native species alone to regulate themselves.  Yes, this means wolf packs and coyotes and cougars bringing down the animals, which can be a terrible way for the deer to die, but we cannot dispute what happens in nature.  We may not like it, but that's the way it is.  And those wolves and cougars have to eat, too, after all.




 


Well, we didn't appreciate them taking our pets, livestock, and children. 


 


all

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2010 - 12:15PM #88
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Oct 31, 2010 -- 2:31AM, Yavanna wrote:


Solf, you don't understand me. As I've said, we eliminated the natural predators. I don't think a wolf, cougar or coyote (the latter not likely, they're scavengers and deal with small prey) taking down a deer is a terrible way to die. It's a circle of life sort of thing.


Your concern for the deer and I'm not sure, but... excusing? The predators is a bit difficult for me to understand. We're talking about wild animals. It's a beautiful thing to see both a deer and wolf in the wild and a beautiful thing to see a predator in action.


Back to my original point, there are no natural predators for us to allow to do their work in the first place. I've said it several times. We have no choice but to fulfill the role ourselves. The territory of the mountain lion is severely diminished as is the timber wolf's. We've recently been successful at re-introducing timber wolves and getting them off the endangered lists, but they will never return to their former range and effect. There are hundreds of thousands of acres, indeed millions, that are without any natural predators and will always be so. The population of animals such as whitetail deer would run rampant to the point of overwhelming the ecosystem and harming other animals if the population was not controlled.


We're in it up to our neck as humans and we simply can't withdraw and let things be. That would be inhumane. The responsible and ethical thing to do is be involved to repair the damage we've done. Yes, without us species wouldn't have gone extinct, but because of us many species have come back from the brink. The environment needs us.




 


There seems to be a thought process that we are somehow seperate from nature, and are intruding. 


 


I'm sorry, but I look at it as we are stuck right in the middle.  We're in it up to our neck, as you said, but not because we intervened in something and now can't find a way to get out of it, but because we were born into it.  I guess that is what I'm saying when I say that I don't create a division between humans and animals.  


 


all

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2010 - 3:41PM #89
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Four-legged predators are perfectly practical in some areas. I live in such an area. We have here wolves, grizzly, coyotes, fox and cougar. And there is plenty of game to go around for both the two and four-legged predators.


However, in some areas, predators might not be all that practical. I don't, for example, see a pack of wolves in suburban New Jersey going over very well -- even though that area has a huge abundance of deer.

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2010 - 3:56PM #90
Yavanna
Posts: 3,149

When other animals build skyscrapers, toast pop tarts and develop the wheel then I'll consider us the same. In the meantime we're responsible for the effects we have and the power we wield. We've got a duty based on the invasive and destructive behavior we've committed in the past few thousand years.

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.
- J.R.R. Tolkien
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