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4 years ago  ::  Oct 24, 2010 - 10:08PM #41
solfeggio
Posts: 9,367

I agree with Marcion that in general I care more for our fellow animals than our fellow humans.  And I don't think this means that we hate humankind, but more that we simply mistrust our fellow humans.  At least I mistrust other humans because I think people are basically motivated by selfishness.  We can't help it; it's just the way we are wired. 


And if this is cynicism, so what?  Based on my education, life experiences and observations of human behaviour over almost seven decades, I've had to conclude that I'm a glass-is-half-full kind of person.


And, again, so what?


I was talking to a friend the other day who was telling me about the night she had to call the vet to put her beloved labrador retriever Emma to sleep because Emma was very old and failing, and life wasn't much fun for her anymore.  My friend said that it didn't really hit her that Emma was gone at first, because she was in shock, but then, the next day...She couldn't stop crying.  The grief was terrible, she said.


This led to me remarking my heartfelt thought that saying goodbye to our animal friends is much harder than saying goodbye to most humans (outside of our immediate family).  And my friend agreed wholeheartedly.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 24, 2010 - 10:14PM #42
solfeggio
Posts: 9,367

I completely agree with Ceren that it is immoral to use other species for our entertainment, and to confine them like prisoners who are serving a sentence for something they didn't do. 


I cringe when I see birds in cages, and I am totally against zoos, rodeos, dog racing, cock fights, horse racing, and all the other so-called 'sports' in which animals are forced to 'entertain' humans at risk to their health and welfare.


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 24, 2010 - 11:53PM #43
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

"This led to me remarking my heartfelt thought that saying goodbye to our animal friends is much harder than saying goodbye to most humans (outside of our immediate family).  And my friend agreed wholeheartedly."


That's really messed up.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 24, 2010 - 11:56PM #44
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Oct 24, 2010 -- 10:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


I completely agree with Ceren that it is immoral to use other species for our entertainment, and to confine them like prisoners who are serving a sentence for something they didn't do. 


I cringe when I see birds in cages, and I am totally against zoos, rodeos, dog racing, cock fights, horse racing, and all the other so-called 'sports' in which animals are forced to 'entertain' humans at risk to their health and welfare.


 


 





It depends.


Racing dogs and horses really do genuinly enjoy racing. Rodeo bulls really do enjoy bucking and throwing riders.


But, when money -- big money -- gets involved, things tend to get pushed too far. And animal athletes can't voice their objections.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 25, 2010 - 3:16AM #45
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Oct 24, 2010 -- 11:56PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Oct 24, 2010 -- 10:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


I completely agree with Ceren that it is immoral to use other species for our entertainment, and to confine them like prisoners who are serving a sentence for something they didn't do. 


I cringe when I see birds in cages, and I am totally against zoos, rodeos, dog racing, cock fights, horse racing, and all the other so-called 'sports' in which animals are forced to 'entertain' humans at risk to their health and welfare.
It depends.


Racing dogs and horses really do genuinly enjoy racing. Rodeo bulls really do enjoy bucking and throwing riders.


But, when money -- big money -- gets involved, things tend to get pushed too far. And animal athletes can't voice their objections.




MTM


It can often depend on our using the golden mean and reason in our choices.


Each of us can pick and choose.


Took my daughter to Disney World, Epcot and Sea World for her college graduation--at her request. Disney World had an aquarium where we could have lunch. We enjoyed Sea World and even the Budweiser Clydesdales housed there. Should Sea Worlds exist with some of our newer knowledge : I am not sure. My 5 and 6 yr-olds enjoyed riding the elephants at a park in Bangkok. We ejoyed the elephant round-up in Northern Thailand, too. Perhaps what we learn about the animals gives a better idea of who they are.


Again each of us may choose our outlook. We will be influenced by many factors.


Jane



discuss catholicism
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 25, 2010 - 12:18PM #46
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

Oct 25, 2010 -- 12:15PM, Marcion wrote:


Oct 24, 2010 -- 10:08PM, solfeggio wrote:


I agree with Marcion that in general I care more for our fellow animals than our fellow humans.  And I don't think this means that we hate humankind, but more that we simply mistrust our fellow humans.  At least I mistrust other humans because I think people are basically motivated by selfishness.  We can't help it; it's just the way we are wired. 


And if this is cynicism, so what?  Based on my education, life experiences and observations of human behaviour over almost seven decades, I've had to conclude that I'm a glass-is-half-full kind of person.


And, again, so what?


I was talking to a friend the other day who was telling me about the night she had to call the vet to put her beloved labrador retriever Emma to sleep because Emma was very old and failing, and life wasn't much fun for her anymore.  My friend said that it didn't really hit her that Emma was gone at first, because she was in shock, but then, the next day...She couldn't stop crying.  The grief was terrible, she said.


This led to me remarking my heartfelt thought that saying goodbye to our animal friends is much harder than saying goodbye to most humans (outside of our immediate family).  And my friend agreed wholeheartedly.





Thanks Sol, I don't hate humans as implied by Bozo mytmouse, I just feel that compared to animal behavior, humans come up short. For one thing, animals do not kill for fun.


I am still grieving over putting my dog,Lexi, to sleep two years ago. I could never bond with a person like I did with Lex, Simply put, dogs are no duplicitous like people.


If there was a god, he would have turned humans back into monkeys ages ago, but that's not really fair to the monkeys.





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4 years ago  ::  Oct 25, 2010 - 12:58PM #47
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Oct 25, 2010 -- 12:18PM, Marcion wrote:


Oct 25, 2010 -- 12:15PM, Marcion wrote:


Oct 24, 2010 -- 10:08PM, solfeggio wrote:


I agree with Marcion that in general I care more for our fellow animals than our fellow humans.  And I don't think this means that we hate humankind, but more that we simply mistrust our fellow humans.  At least I mistrust other humans because I think people are basically motivated by selfishness.  We can't help it; it's just the way we are wired. 


And if this is cynicism, so what?  Based on my education, life experiences and observations of human behaviour over almost seven decades, I've had to conclude that I'm a glass-is-half-full kind of person.


And, again, so what?


I was talking to a friend the other day who was telling me about the night she had to call the vet to put her beloved labrador retriever Emma to sleep because Emma was very old and failing, and life wasn't much fun for her anymore.  My friend said that it didn't really hit her that Emma was gone at first, because she was in shock, but then, the next day...She couldn't stop crying.  The grief was terrible, she said.


This led to me remarking my heartfelt thought that saying goodbye to our animal friends is much harder than saying goodbye to most humans (outside of our immediate family).  And my friend agreed wholeheartedly.





Thanks Sol, I don't hate humans as implied by Bozo mytmouse, I just feel that compared to animal behavior, humans come up short. For one thing, animals do not kill for fun.


I am still grieving over putting my dog,Lexi, to sleep two years ago. I could never bond with a person like I did with Lex, Simply put, dogs are no duplicitous like people.


If there was a god, he would have turned humans back into monkeys ages ago, but that's not really fair to the monkeys.









I'm sorry, but holding as negative a view of humans as is implied in many of these statements certianly comes across as hating humans.


I'm deeply sorry you were never able to bond with another human as you did with a dog. That sounds like a personal problem.


Look, I too, have bonded strongly with dogs. The oldest one I have now -- who I raised since he was a tiny puppy and nursed through Parvo -- I've already warned my wife; when he goes, I'm going to be a mess for days.


But even what I feel for him is nothing compared to the human connections I've made. So, again, if you've failed to make such connections with other human beings, I really don't know what to say.


Lastly, your veiw of animals -- at least as expressed in your statements -- is incredibly naive. It makes me question how much time you've really spend around them.


Animals don't kill for fun? Bullshit! Wolves are well known to go on killing sprees and kill more than they need. I've seen dogs kill just for shits time and again. I once watched one of my dogs drag a groundhog into a creek and drown it. It was fun for him. Dogs are predators -- predators are driven by an instinct to kill. Dogs very much enjoy killing. As do cats.


Animals are utterly brutal, but also completely innocent. I can't hold my dog as a "murderer" even though -- as well fed and cared for as he was -- he still drowned that hapless ground hog. Animals are not culpable for their actions. Even though their actions are guided by what could ultimately be seen as hatred, greed, lust, gluttony and so on.


And the irony of it is, the "bad" things we sometimes note about human beings are all attributed to their animal side. It's the angelic side of our nature, that which rises above our animal instinct, that produces the praiseworthy actions of humans. Saying we should be more like animals is completely stupid in that regard. Because it is when we act like animals that all of our worst comes out,  and we do the most damage -- to ourselves, to each other and to the environment.


Animals don't have that choice. They will act like animals regardless. As I said before, a herd of elk doesn't give a shit about anything but eating and reproducing. And if they were pushed to the top of the heap -- as humans have been -- there would be no alturism, mercy, thought or nobility to their actions. They would simply eat and reproduce until there was nothing left and the environment could simply no longer sustain them. In fact, in Yellowstone National Park -- where for decades they had neither natural predators no human hunting to contend with -- elk did exactly that, and drove the ecosystem of the Park to the cusp of collapse. Just one small example -- I've lived near Yellowstone Park virtually my entire life, and until this past summer, never saw a deer there. The elk had driven them -- as well as numerous other species -- out.


So, again, to try saying animals don't do the "bad" things some people try to say humans do is to show incredible ignorance of animals and the natrual world.


Now, we could argue humans have been doing much the same thing -- but that proves my point. When humans act only as animals do, then the results are predictable. We also have the capability of showing concern and nobility and finding a better way.  We can, and in many cases have, become prudent and wise in our use of natural resources and actually made the world around us better and more beautiful.


And we will continue to do so.  We might have some suffering to do before we really learn our lesson on a global scale. But, we will. Ultimately, I have faith in humans. I see the nobility and capacity in our race of beings, and refuse to give into this petty and fatalistic negativity I see so often on these boards.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 25, 2010 - 5:06PM #48
Lonesentinel
Posts: 2,423

I think there is one Ultimate Moral in all living things - Might Makes Right.  If you think about it, in all species, including Human, in the physical sense, this is true.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 25, 2010 - 5:18PM #49
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Oct 25, 2010 -- 5:06PM, Lonesentinel wrote:


I think there is one Ultimate Moral in all living things - Might Makes Right.  If you think about it, in all species, including Human, in the physical sense, this is true.





In the purley physical sense, yes. The largest, most powerful creature -- say a grizzly bear -- is undisputed in his territory. And yet, should he get a cut that gets infected, then the smallest of creatures -- the microbe -- will kill him.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2010 - 5:48PM #50
solfeggio
Posts: 9,367

Mouse -


You always keep generalising all nonhumans by saying that they are all brutal killing machines.  And this just isn't so, because you are really only talking about carnivores, which comprise only about one fourth of all species.  And even carnivores are not just about killing all the time!


In any case, if nonhumans are all about eating and reproducing - SO ARE HUMANS!  Wink


I mean, c'mon.  Can you doubt this?


And, nonhumans don't start wars.  Nor do they rape.  Nor are they pedophiles or serial killers.   They don't pollute the rivers and oceans.  And they don't cut down trees in rainforests or destroy huge tracts of land to create palm oil industries.  And nonhumans don't cheat or lie.  If they steal, it's just to get something with which to make a nest.


Going down the list, it seems that the humans cause much, much more damage, misery and suffering in this world than do our fellow animals.


And yet, the supreme jest is that we humans truly think that we have 'dominion' over them.


What a joke.


 

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