Oct 26, 2010 -- 5:48PM, solfeggio wrote:

Mouse -

You always keep generalising all nonhumans by saying that they are all brutal killing machines.  And this just isn't so, because you are really only talking about carnivores, which comprise only about one fourth of all species.  And even carnivores are not just about killing all the time!

In any case, if nonhumans are all about eating and reproducing - SO ARE HUMANS! 

I mean, c'mon.  Can you doubt this?

And, nonhumans don't start wars.  Nor do they rape.  Nor are they pedophiles or serial killers.   They don't pollute the rivers and oceans.  And they don't cut down trees in rainforests or destroy huge tracts of land to create palm oil industries.  And nonhumans don't cheat or lie.  If they steal, it's just to get something with which to make a nest.

Going down the list, it seems that the humans cause much, much more damage, misery and suffering in this world than do our fellow animals.

And yet, the supreme jest is that we humans truly think that we have 'dominion' over them.

What a joke.

 

Solf -- everything you said humans do -- animals do too.

And when we do those things, it's because we're allowing outselves to be ruled by the animal side of our nature. That was central to my point. It's ironic to say humans are bad and animals are pure because of certian things. When, in fact, animals do those things, and secondly, when humans do them, it's because we are behaving like animals.

The differnce is, animals don't know any better. They are therefore innocent of any wrongdoing. The flipside of this, of course, is that animals aren't really praiseworthy either. They simply are what they are.

Humans do know better -- or at least have the capacity to know better -- and also have a rational, spiritual side that animals do not have. Therefore, we are culpable for our actions and can be either praiseworthy or blameworthy, depending upon our choices.

Oct 26, 2010 -- 7:16PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:

SSDD

 

This is a issue that isn't going to be resolved anytime soon. 

 

All I have to say is, Solf, you don't have to hate, to kill. 

 

all

Very true. I don't hate deer at all. In fact, quite the opposite. They are fine creatures, worthy of respect, complex and intelligent.

But, I still do my level best to kill one and get its meat in the freezer every year.

mytmouse57:  But, when money -- big money -- gets involved, things tend to get pushed too far. And animal athletes can't voice their objections.

I dunno.  I would think the horns and hooves and teeth manage to make their point quite well ....

Animals don't kill for fun? Bullshit! Wolves are well known to go on killing sprees and kill more than they need. I've seen dogs kill just for shits time and again. I once watched one of my dogs drag a groundhog into a creek and drown it. It was fun for him. Dogs are predators -- predators are driven by an instinct to kill. Dogs very much enjoy killing. As do cats.

I can agree, though I wonder how much of this isn't so much an "animal" thing as a "carnivore" thing.  If your survival doesn't DEPEND on killing things, killing things will never be much of a game with a point, right?  After all, psychology notes that play is merely practicing life skills.  Human sports are metaphors for various types of battle rules.  Sometimes blood's involved, sometimes it isn't.  Playing tag is predatory in nature, even though no real harm is done.  My young dogs mostly kill just bugs, though I wonder how much they know what they're doing.  They both love bug hunting, though I wonder if they just don't know bugs can't really stand up to 100lbs of "fun".  After all, I've seen them turn over creatures killed as if wondering why it's not playing anymore.  Sarah, my black Lab, mothers small dogs.  Bear, her chocolate brother, assumes anything a lot smaller than him is a toy.  I once had a Cocker spaniel that met his first cat.  His first instinct wasn't to kill it but to "investigate" it.  Of course, a quick claw-swipe convinced him cats weren't toys, LOL.  I tend to own rather pure-hearted dogs, though.  Even pet boarders have noted that it's dangerous for them to be in fights with aggressive dogs because they just don't get the other ones mean business.  They're slowly learning what real violence is.  We've just been praying they don't have to learn the hard way.  Now, at least, they stay away from "real fights" and just engage in play ones.  :)

In fact, in Yellowstone National Park -- where for decades they had neither natural predators no human hunting to contend with -- elk did exactly that, and drove the ecosystem of the Park to the cusp of collapse.

Thanks for the reminder of herbivore "issues".  See, the thing is, predation is NECESSARY for a healthy environment, something "herbivorous by choice" humans fail to notice.

solfeggio:  And, nonhumans don't start wars.

Chimps do.  Rape, too.  In fact, rape happens quite a bit.  So can sexual infidelity.  Animals are neither monsters nor saints.  They are just as individualistic as we are.

And they don't cut down trees in rainforests or destroy huge tracts of land to create palm oil industries.

Elephants might not put up a parking lot, but they're well known for screwing up forests as well.

And nonhumans don't cheat or lie.

You don't know a whole lot about animals, do you?  Ravens and jays and such, at the very least, know how to deceive, as do squirrels and my dogs.  I've seen one of my dogs beg to have the door open so the other dog will leave so the first one can get the bone.

Oct 26, 2010 -- 7:46PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

I once saw a dog get a slight hurt to his leg, yipe, limp a little bit and consequenlty get all sorts of attention from the people present.

Later, the dog made another pass, still limping, and obviously waiting for the attention. The problem was, he was limping on the wrong leg.

 

Part of what makes dogs such fun is that they can be very wiley.

Oct 26, 2010 -- 10:49PM, solfeggio wrote:

What Iwantamotto and Mouse are saying, then, is that they agree that nonhuman animals do have thought processes and reasoning powers.  And we all know that they feel pain, experience pleasure, and enjoy their food.

In other words,like humans, they are sentient beings. 

Let's see now: Alive, thinking, and feeling.  (So, where do these religious types come off describing them as 'dumb beasts,' then?)

And where does anybody get off thinking that they are just there for us to use and exploit?

Nonhumans aren't ours to use or kill for pleasure anymore than humans are there for us to enslave or torture or kill.

 

Solf, I think the very air we breathe and soil we tread on has a measure of spiritual signifigance.

Nobody is denying animals have thoughts and feelings. They aren't just stupid bags of meat.

Nobody  -- at least nobody here -- is advocating either not giving a damn about animals or outright abusing them. Near as I can tell, just about everybody here embraces the idea of animal welfare.

Animal rights, to many of us, takes things to an irrational extreme.