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Switch to Forum Live View Some We Love, Some We Hate, Some We Eat
4 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2010 - 5:39PM #11
solfeggio
Posts: 8,942

I don't enjoy being a predator.  And I believe that humans' idea of other species being ours to exploit or regulate is all wrong.  


What we should be all about is regarding other species as fellow members of the moral community, based on their sentience.


As such, then, loving some, hating some, and eating others makes no sense.


And foolishly labelling rats, mice, squirrels and other rodents as 'vermin' is just another way of excusing killing them, when, in fact, they have just as much right to live their lives as cats, dogs, and other creatures that we 'love.'


Given that rats can devastate humans' food supplies, if humans really wanted to even make an effort to control rat populations, they would have long ago figured out some sort of birth control to render either the males or females sterile.  It could be in the form of tablets left about where rats congregate, and if the rats didn't breed, the populations would drop dramatically, because they have very short lifespans.


But, it's much more fun to use cruel poisons or traps on these intelligent creatures than to look for a more humane way of keeping them out of the grain supplies.


And this is but one of the many reasons why I guess you could say I have it in for Homo sapiens sapiens.  We're nature's mistake.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2010 - 6:27PM #12
Guessses
Posts: 2,233

I worked with Navy Divers. Their motto was "If you think we are the top of the food chain, dive a couple hundred feet"

Infinite Blessings
Mike/NAFOD
"Lord, please, protect me from Your followers!"
"WWBD? Buddha- Does it matter? If you are enlightened it does not. If you are not enlightened it still doesn't matter."
"If you go looking to place blame, eventually you'll wind up blaming the Gods"
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2010 - 6:34PM #13
solfeggio
Posts: 8,942

I can agree with that.  Wink

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2010 - 7:13PM #14
Ceren
Posts: 1,430

Oct 20, 2010 -- 8:13PM, mountain_man wrote:


No disconnect there. Sorry, just can't see any rational basis for the arguments presented. Lot's of emotional stuff, but not rational.




I don't think it's "emotional" stuff but I do think it's moral stuff. By this I'm not implying that one morality is better than the other, but simply that people have different morals.


By now it's undisputable that animals are sentient beings very much capable of feeling pain (I'm sure most dog owners can attest to that as well with no need to present the scientific data!). In addition, different animals have different levels of intelligence.


Some people do not believe it's moral to inflict pain on animals while raising them to be eaten (e.g. veal castrated without anesthesia, chicken's wings broken without anesthesia, etc, etc.).


Some people don't believe that "do unto others...." applies exclusively to humans.


It's not emotional, it's moral philosophy, which you're entitled to disagree with.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2010 - 12:10PM #15
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,043

Oct 21, 2010 -- 5:39PM, solfeggio wrote:


I don't enjoy being a predator.  And I believe that humans' idea of other species being ours to exploit or regulate is all wrong.  


What we should be all about is regarding other species as fellow members of the moral community, based on their sentience.


As such, then, loving some, hating some, and eating others makes no sense.


And foolishly labelling rats, mice, squirrels and other rodents as 'vermin' is just another way of excusing killing them, when, in fact, they have just as much right to live their lives as cats, dogs, and other creatures that we 'love.'


Given that rats can devastate humans' food supplies, if humans really wanted to even make an effort to control rat populations, they would have long ago figured out some sort of birth control to render either the males or females sterile.  It could be in the form of tablets left about where rats congregate, and if the rats didn't breed, the populations would drop dramatically, because they have very short lifespans.


But, it's much more fun to use cruel poisons or traps on these intelligent creatures than to look for a more humane way of keeping them out of the grain supplies.





You assume that we use traps/poison because it's fun and people just love murdering rats and other rodents. Have you sat down and figured out what it would cost to attempt to make rodents sterile vs. the cost of using traps? Have you figured out a viable way to make that sterilization happen? Until there is a viable/cost-effective way to do so, people will use traps and poison because they're cheaper and easier...not because they get off doing so.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2010 - 12:51PM #16
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,073

solfeggio:  Baby animals have big eyes and cute little faces, like human babies, and we can relate to that.



I actually like birds/reptiles/amphibians better, to be honest.  :)


We in the West are brought up to loathe spiders and other 'creepy crawly' creatures, and to kill them on sight, even though when looked at logically, this makes no sense.



I used to believe that, now I try to be more ecologically aware, considering I hate their prey more than I hate them.  However, if they get too big, they're deadly, or they invade my personal space ... screw the scooting them out the door.


Of course, nowadays my young dogs just take care of the problem for me.  Ah, the beauty of letting nature do your job for you, LOL.  :)


Why?  Because they're 'cute'?  Or because we happen to think they're smart?  Hell, pigs are smarter than dogs, but we don't have any problem slitting their throats, do we?



I don't know how prevalent it is, but I'm from the South, and whenever there's a news story of some livestock escaping the slaughterhouse, it usually gets a reprieve.  Go to more traditional societies and people were expected to ask the animal's permission.  You act like people have absolutely no morals when it comes to eating meat, when that's not the case.  Over the millennia, the morality of it has spawned several types of solutions, from the aforementioned permission begging to refining slaughter techniques to make it more painless.  Even if you disagree with the results, it doesn't mean people aren't trying to eat meat ethically.


It is true that there are plenty of people who will say that they 'hate' spiders or that they find earthworms repulsive.



I dislike lots of things.  I also don't go out of my way to squish those I don't like.


And it is also true that most people in our Western culture, anyway, would not think of killing, cooking, and eating a dog or cat, simply because we are brought up not to do this.



For real fun, bring up horse slaughter in Texas.


And I believe that humans' idea of other species being ours to exploit or regulate is all wrong.



They are not "ours" to exploit at all.  We do not have dibs on any prey animal.  All species are part of the food web.  And don't hand me this "humans are superior to animals and shouldn't mimic carnivorous behavior" nonsense.  If that logic were true, we wouldn't be doing anything any animal ever does, like loving others or protecting territory, etc.  We are animals.  We are omnivorous animals.  We are part of the food web.  Sharks, bears, dogs, tigers, etc ... they all remind us we are not the top of the food chain ... we may be on the top tier, but it's a shared tier.


What we should be all about is regarding other species as fellow members of the moral community, based on their sentience.



But it sounds like you're now agreeing with what you just said was psychologically arbitrary.  Is it bad to pick and choose, or isn't it?


they would have long ago figured out some sort of birth control to render either the males or females sterile



So, you're against all the bloody stuff, but removing key aspects of their livelihoods is perfectly okay?


Have you ever asked yourself why plants have analgesic and other effects?  Surely it's not for our benefit ... that would be anthropocentric, right?  If plants can feel pain too, then under your logic we really should just go ahead and starve to death, considering that pretty much gets rid of all available food sources.  How can "eating plants is okay because they don't really feel anything/aren't sentient" any different from "eating animals is okay because they don't really feel anything/aren't sentient"?

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2010 - 1:10PM #17
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Oct 21, 2010 -- 5:39PM, solfeggio wrote:


I don't enjoy being a predator.  And I believe that humans' idea of other species being ours to exploit or regulate is all wrong.  


What we should be all about is regarding other species as fellow members of the moral community, based on their sentience.


As such, then, loving some, hating some, and eating others makes no sense.


And foolishly labelling rats, mice, squirrels and other rodents as 'vermin' is just another way of excusing killing them, when, in fact, they have just as much right to live their lives as cats, dogs, and other creatures that we 'love.'


Given that rats can devastate humans' food supplies, if humans really wanted to even make an effort to control rat populations, they would have long ago figured out some sort of birth control to render either the males or females sterile.  It could be in the form of tablets left about where rats congregate, and if the rats didn't breed, the populations would drop dramatically, because they have very short lifespans.


But, it's much more fun to use cruel poisons or traps on these intelligent creatures than to look for a more humane way of keeping them out of the grain supplies.


And this is but one of the many reasons why I guess you could say I have it in for Homo sapiens sapiens.  We're nature's mistake.





Animals most certianly don't regard one another as part of any "moral community."


The "moral code" of the animal world is, "Me and mine, *&%$# the rest of y'all!"


Furthermore, the notion that animals are some sort of great environmentalists is really bunk. A herd of elks exists only to reproduce and eat. It will do so without thinking or regard. And left to its own, it will do so with disasterous effects to the environment around it. Likewise, a pack of wolves will hunt, kill and eat until all available game is gone in an area, and then simply move on.


It is only nature's brutality that keeps such things in check -- through disease, predation, winter kill, and so on.


We, because of our ability to defy many of those factors, are faced with a two-edged sword. We can either steward the environment and improve it -- something no other creature conciously does. Or, we can harm it.


And finally, I'll again note that any notions of animals being our "equals" always seems to come wrapped in some sort of misanthropy or a very dim view of humanity. The statement "we are nature's mistake" clearly illustrates this mentality.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2010 - 1:13PM #18
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Oct 21, 2010 -- 11:20AM, farragut wrote:


"Old saying : squirrels are rats with good PR.................."


They are that, but they are also very tasty, as are those cuddly bunnies that someone mentionned.


I enjoy being a predator.


 





Squirrels in my part of the world (Rocky Mountain West) aren't really big enough to eat, but I've heard great things about how tastey those big Eastern and Southern Fox Squirrels are.


The winter after my divorce, I was so broke, I practically lived on the rabbits I hunted. It was rabbit meat and rice every night. So I'm not sure I'm too keen eating any more rabbit... LOL.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2010 - 1:16PM #19
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Oct 22, 2010 -- 12:10PM, Girlchristian wrote:


Oct 21, 2010 -- 5:39PM, solfeggio wrote:


I don't enjoy being a predator.  And I believe that humans' idea of other species being ours to exploit or regulate is all wrong.  


What we should be all about is regarding other species as fellow members of the moral community, based on their sentience.


As such, then, loving some, hating some, and eating others makes no sense.


And foolishly labelling rats, mice, squirrels and other rodents as 'vermin' is just another way of excusing killing them, when, in fact, they have just as much right to live their lives as cats, dogs, and other creatures that we 'love.'


Given that rats can devastate humans' food supplies, if humans really wanted to even make an effort to control rat populations, they would have long ago figured out some sort of birth control to render either the males or females sterile.  It could be in the form of tablets left about where rats congregate, and if the rats didn't breed, the populations would drop dramatically, because they have very short lifespans.


But, it's much more fun to use cruel poisons or traps on these intelligent creatures than to look for a more humane way of keeping them out of the grain supplies.





You assume that we use traps/poison because it's fun and people just love murdering rats and other rodents. Have you sat down and figured out what it would cost to attempt to make rodents sterile vs. the cost of using traps? Have you figured out a viable way to make that sterilization happen? Until there is a viable/cost-effective way to do so, people will use traps and poison because they're cheaper and easier...not because they get off doing so.





I agree. Sterilization as a means of population control simply isn't practical in many situations. Hence, it's never really caught on. In some situations, it might be. And I'm sure it's been tried for, say, controling urban/suburban deer herds.


The other rodent-control option -- the one I always used when I've lived in areas with lots of rodents -- is to simply keep cats. Completely natural, no chemicals involved. Even the scent of a cat will keep mice or rats from entering a structure. Many dogs are good mousers as well. When my sister managed a Colorado ranch where I worked summers as a ranch hand, she had a Chow that was a mouse-eating machine.


And the main reason to control rodents -- to not really want even one around your living and eating space -- is disease.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2010 - 1:36PM #20
appy20
Posts: 10,165

I have eaten squirrel being that my older brothers were avid hunters as I was growing up.  I wouldn't eat it now. I do love squirrels. 


I like rats and mice (as creatures, not food) too but they carry diseases that could cause problems for my horse.  So, I let my cats kill them.  I hate cockroaches because they will not stop breeding.  I don't like insecticides in my home so I  tried going without pest control and the roaches took over.  i had a lot of books completely destroyed by them.  Roaches love paper products.  I refused to eat in my house for three months in hopes that having no food at all on the premises would discourage them. It didn't.  They took over. They just ate everything that had paper and glue in them.  I couldn't live with them. They now die.


I like snakes.  However, poisonous snakes are a danger to my pets and have to go.  If they are endangered, I will call someone to come and get them. If they are nonpoisonous, I let them be.  I had a wonderful rat snake that lived on my porch for a couple of years and have always missed him.  I know my snakes so I know what is what.  We have quite a number of different snake species here. 


We have recenlty had our first person killed by African honeybees.  So, now I will be adding that to the list of creatures to be professionally exterminated.  Not native honeybees, you understand, just the African ones. I intend to be more vigilant of bees and wasps that visit my property.


I prefer not killing animals.  I don't eat much meat but I did not do well on a completely meatless diet when I tried it years ago.  I eat meat about once every ten days.  That is more than enough for me.  Even though I prefer not killing, I will do it on occasion.  I do hate cockroaches.  I hate slugs. I don't kill slugs. they don't hurt me.  I do hate them but not enough to kill them.   I let them be.  The only thing I will kill are poisonous snakes and cockroaches.  And of course, the food I eat. 


I have always refused to date hunters and never have dated one.  I am not comfortable with someone who kills animals for fun.  Yes, since I eat meat, there is some hypocrisy in that but I do make an effort.  Killing for food is slightly better, as far as my sensibilities go, than killing for sport.


I am strongly in favor of humane breeding, housing and slaughtering practices. 


That is far as I go. 


I do love squirrels in my yard. Unfortunately, my dog hates them and will kill them.  I have worked and will always work with breaking her of that.  She does leave birds at the feeder alone now so one day, I suspect, she will leave the squirrels alone. 


I also grieve over roadkill. Part of me will always hate cars for that.

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