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Switch to Forum Live View Human ancestors ate meat 3.2 million years ago...
4 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2010 - 8:28AM #41
Iwantamotto
Posts: 7,781

MMarcoe:  But I predict that in the future, we will evolve into fruitarians and we will evolve the ability to take all our nutrients from fruit.



I was forced to eat hamburger or other meat I'd thrown up as a kid, both at home and at school (hence, why I tend to be picky and highly distrustful of new foods or foods that taste different).  I grew up on mashed potatoes, toast, and PB sandwiches.  I didn't eat another hamburger until I was 18.  So, until meat sends me to the ER, I'm going to enjoy the things I suffered for, LOL.  Still, while my diet isn't as bland anymore, fruit and I have always had a love-hate relationship.  My problem is that I dislike strong tastes, which puts me also in the "not too fond of veggies" category.  While it also means I don't eat pastries (too sweet), my diet is basically brown or white.  However, I'm pleased to acknowledge I can drink mixed berry smoothies now.  Tastes different than the first time I had it, but the first time had rum, LOL.  I could drink the whole 8 servings in the bottle now.  My problem is that I have to crave it, or it just simply won't be eaten/drunk.  People who tell me to eat things are basically wasting their breath.


appy20:  Plus, only stupid people think that only if one jumps off a cliff that one can comprehend that it is not the wisest of moves.



Sweetie, they're "stupid" because they think in concrete terms a lot.  I have relatives who must have the proverbial brick thrown at them (and even I do every blue moon) in order for them to learn something.  They think that putting that hand on the hot stove is the only way to learn not to do it because that's how THEY learned.  :)

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2010 - 11:10AM #42
teilhard
Posts: 48,273

Human Beings and our Ancestors were and are Omnivores ... Our TEETH and Guts indicate this ... It's all about our "Biology" ...


SOME of our Cultural Evolutionary Relatives, however -- "The New 'Atheists'" -- come across to THIS Person of Faith as, "KarmaVores" ...


Aug 12, 2010 -- 2:35AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Findings on ancient animal bones seem to prove meat eating not to be the recently acquired bad habit that some vegan ideologues have constructed it to be:


www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,...


In other words, some species of human ancestor — likely Australopithecus afarensis, whose best known representative is 3.2-million-year-old Lucy, the authors say — not only had a hankering for meat, which scientists had not expected, but used tools to get it.


Admittedly not exactly a hot news item, but it could pour oil on the vegan fire :-)


Solfeggio, what's your take on this?





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4 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2010 - 1:41PM #43
MMarcoe
Posts: 14,677

Aug 16, 2010 -- 8:28AM, Iwantamotto wrote:


MMarcoe:  But I predict that in the future, we will evolve into fruitarians and we will evolve the ability to take all our nutrients from fruit.



I was forced to eat hamburger or other meat I'd thrown up as a kid, both at home and at school (hence, why I tend to be picky and highly distrustful of new foods or foods that taste different).  I grew up on mashed potatoes, toast, and PB sandwiches.  I didn't eat another hamburger until I was 18.  So, until meat sends me to the ER, I'm going to enjoy the things I suffered for, LOL.  Still, while my diet isn't as bland anymore, fruit and I have always had a love-hate relationship.  My problem is that I dislike strong tastes, which puts me also in the "not too fond of veggies" category.  While it also means I don't eat pastries (too sweet), my diet is basically brown or white.  However, I'm pleased to acknowledge I can drink mixed berry smoothies now.  Tastes different than the first time I had it, but the first time had rum, LOL.  I could drink the whole 8 servings in the bottle now.  My problem is that I have to crave it, or it just simply won't be eaten/drunk.  People who tell me to eat things are basically wasting their breath.





A fruitarian diet also includes grains, beans, nuts, seeds, and many things we think of as vegetables (tomatoes, squashes, peppers, etc.)

There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.

God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2010 - 3:24PM #44
arielg
Posts: 9,105

People only learn what they are ready to learn, no matter what they hear.


 When I became a vegetarian many years ago, I was, like many people who discover something knew, prone to proselytizing.  I would go home where people eat meat three time a day and try to explain things to them about diets.  


 They would listen and seemed  to understand and willing to change some habits.  They would always say  "Oh yes, you are right, we eat too much meat. We should eat more fruits and vegetables", but thirty years later, after almost yearly visits, they are eating exactly the same as always.


(Except one nephew who really changed his habits and used to call me traitor, because I went back to some practices and wasn't as strict as him )

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2010 - 5:09PM #45
Ebon
Posts: 9,815

Aug 15, 2010 -- 10:39PM, MMarcoe wrote:

They're already working on producing meat in the lab. In a few years, you'll be able to buy lab-made meat that did not require the killing of an animal. Who knows? It might even taste good.



Which would be great but opens up a whole 'nother bag of ethical questions. If meat can be "grown" without any involvement from the animal, can we really say that eating "grown" meat designed to resemble human flesh is wrong (Warren Ellis played with this one in Transmetropolitan). Further, if there is no involvement from the animal, can it be said to be "meat"? Granted, those are philosophical questions but they are things which need to be considered. Also, how are you going to deal with sport-hunters and recreational fishermen, ban them outright? I'd have no real issue with that but I think a lot of people would (full disclosure: I have been hunting a few times, made it a point to kill with a single shot (failed only once, for which I still feel guilty) and I have been fishing many times as I was growing up. Everything I killed was eaten).

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2010 - 5:19PM #46
Ebon
Posts: 9,815

For the record: I have no problem with anyone being vegetarian or vegan, that's a personal choice and if you happen to be having dinner with me, I'll go to some lengths to accomodate that. I do have a problem with being proselytized at.


I actually agree with solfeggio on the evils of factory farming and I'd urge anyone who does eat meat to buy only free-range (sometimes called "cage-free") meat. Your butcher should be easily able to tell you which of his produce was free-range (exception for those on the breadline who really can't afford the extra fifty pence or a dollar to get free-range). I strongly suspect factory farming will be banned long before creating meat in a lab becomes commercially viable and I'll be glad to see it go. Even as a meat eater, factory farms are evil. Eating meat doesn't have to mean supporting that kind of suffering and, if you need a selfish justification, any chef will tell you that free-range meat tastes better. Any hunter should have two objectives: 1) Ensure the safety of himself and his party; 2) Keep the animal's suffering to an absolute minimum. I fail to see why eating meat should be exempt from the second of those.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2010 - 5:50PM #47
Erey
Posts: 17,351

I think there is a certain amount of tribe affiliation based on what you eat or what you don't eat.  So I think that is why sometimes Vegans can't abide meat eaters and sometimes meat eaters can't abide Vegans.


It is one think to have a Kosher keeping jew come to your house and expect to serve that person kosher acceptable foods.  Unless you are a jew that person is of a different tribe, so it is OK that they eat differently. 


But if your own relative or close friend suddenly won't eat what you eat - especially for moral reasons well that feels on an unconcious level like a rejection.  Sort of like they are leaving the tribe.


Through history human tribes have been based not totally but alot on diet.  So when someone rejects your diet they seemingly reject you.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2010 - 6:14PM #48
Steven_A
Posts: 318

Human ancestors 3.2 million years ago did not eat meat from animals that were raised in factory farms. The issue today isn't so much meat-eating in general, it's the amount of meat that people eat and where the meat comes from. In factory farms, the animals are fed growth hormones and steroids from the time that they're infants, in order to make them grow much faster and much larger than normal in order to maximize profit and meet demand. Most of them also spend their entire lives confined in cages that don't even allow them enough room to turn around. The conditions in which these animals are raised has also been proven to dramatically increase their levels of stress hormones. So most of the meat that people eat today comes from unhealthy animals with high levels of stress hormones. Does anyone really think it's a good idea to eat that?


Factory farming is a modern phenomenon, and today more than 95% of meat comes from factory farms. I don't think there's any question that in modern times a vegan or vegetarian diet is much more healthy than eating factory farm animals.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2010 - 6:46PM #49
Ebon
Posts: 9,815

I tend to think that factory farming came about largely because of the consolidation of agri-businesses. For the average family farm, there simply wasn't the incentive to lock animals in cages 24/7 because the few dollars they'd save didn't justify the outlay of the equipment. But when you get to large agri-business, the couple of dollars they'd save on each animal becomes significant because of the sheer amount of animals involved. So, the family farms struggled to play catch-up for years until the massive ethical (and sometimes legal) abuses of the factory farms started coming to light. Once that started happening, it actually become feasable to market your free-range eggs, milk and meat as both tastier and more ethical (plus, buying from small mom-n-pop operations is usually more ethical than buying from huge corporations). If more people want their farm produce cruelty-free and go out of their way to buy cruelty-free produce (which is also why it's important to use your neighbourhood butcher rather than a supermarket, you actually know what you're getting), it becomes increasingly difficult for the agri-businesses to justify their practices. If you're presented with the choice of buying your pork (for example) from a pig that spent it's life squashed into a tiny cage being pumped full of drugs OR buying porn from a pig that had spent it's life wandering around a farm, wallowing in mud and doing pig stuff before being painlessly sent to piggy heaven AND the latter tastes better (as any chef will tell you; Gordon Ramsay, one of the greatest chefs in the world, went to the lengths of raising and butchering his own meat) AND the difference in price is minimal, which are you going to choose?


Yeah, me too. I think most people would. And that's why I think it's important to get the word out not just that factory farming is ethically indefensible but also that there is an alternative. You don't have to give up meat or spend a fortune, you just need to put a little extra effort into sourcing your meat ethically.


That said, in terms of health, most of us could probably do with eating less meat. We're not (most of us anyway) a population that does hard manual labour for twelve hours a day anymore. We're not burning nutrients in the same amounts and our diet needs to reflect that. I bow to no-one in my love of good food but good food doesn't necessarily have to involve meat (it can but it's not mandatory). One of my favourite foods to make (I happen to enjoy cooking) is bell peppers stuffed with cream cheese and fresh oregano (vegans, switch the cream cheese for hummous and add a little salsify to offset the tartness of the lemon juice) and then flash-fried (very briefly, you're looking to warm it through, not boil it in oil). Cooking without meat doesn't have to be boring (in fact, it can force you to be more creative in the same way that the radio versions of rap songs are often more interesting). We live in a society where we have the produce of many nations available to us whenever we want it so make use of it.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2010 - 12:11AM #50
solfeggio
Posts: 8,526

Ebon -


I very much enjoyed reading your post.  Smile


But I have to tell you that I did smile at a little typo you had in which you referred to 'buying porn from a pig.'  Wink


Nevertheless, I am pleased to read that the Brits are trying to develop more humane eating habits.  But this should come as no surprise in a country which did ban fox hunting.


And your suggestion for stuffed peppers does sound very tasty. 

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