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4 years ago  ::  May 04, 2010 - 3:01PM #1
Newtonian
Posts: 12,187

In the locked thread Older pointed out that abortion is murder, and that the United States is responsible for the murder of millions of innocents.  Of course, so are many other human governments. 


I did not get a chance to post on that thread - so I am starting this thread to confirm that is what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. 


www.watchtower.org/e/200906/article_01.h...


www.watchtower.org/e/200906/article_02.h...


www.watchtower.org/e/200906/article_03.h...


www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_13.htm


And concerning teen motherhood:


www.watchtower.org/e/20041008/article_03...


I can take personal attacks - so can older, btw.  However, this is against beliefnet guidelines.  It is also against Scriptural counsel:



(1 Peter 3:15) . . .But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.


So, if you disagree - why not do so in a civilized manner?


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4 years ago  ::  May 04, 2010 - 3:05PM #2
Ivandefendingtruth
Posts: 366

 


(Psalm 139:13-16) 13 For you yourself produced my kidneys; You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. 14 I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware. 15 My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed And there was not yet one among them.


(Psalm 139:13-16) 13 For you yourself produced my kidneys; You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. 14 I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware. 15 My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed And there was not yet one among them.


The Creator of the heavens and the earth considers even the "embryo" a living being, a soul. To kill this soul (or any soul for that matter) is surely murder. 


 

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4 years ago  ::  May 04, 2010 - 3:12PM #3
Sulla Felix
Posts: 528

May 4, 2010 -- 3:05PM, Ivandefendingtruth wrote:


 


(Psalm 139:13-16) 13 For you yourself produced my kidneys; You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. 14 I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware. 15 My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed And there was not yet one among them.


(Psalm 139:13-16) 13 For you yourself produced my kidneys; You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. 14 I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware. 15 My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed And there was not yet one among them.


The Creator of the heavens and the earth considers even the "embryo" a living being, a soul. To kill this soul (or any soul for that matter) is surely murder. 



Not true.  You kill animal souls all the time and this is not murder, is it?  Or, at least you have animal souls killed for food routinely, do you not?

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4 years ago  ::  May 04, 2010 - 3:14PM #4
Svetlana
Posts: 11,286

What started the heat, Newtonian, was Older's statement that those who participate in a government that allows abortion are themselves murderers, because of that participation.  I don't think the issue was abortion itself.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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4 years ago  ::  May 04, 2010 - 3:14PM #5
matica
Posts: 3,065

If you want to make a point about abortion, fine, that is one issue I think most christians would agree with the JW's, abortion is murder, plain and simple. Esp. late term abortions.


What is not civil is accusing  prolife christians of supporting abortion just because they are not jw's.


Now I agree 100% with the watchtower regarding abortion, so do these other religions:


www.catholic.com/library/Abortion.asp


www.pregnantpause.org/people/wherchur.ht...


So clearly not all religions believe abortion is right, I think we must take a closer look at if the fetus is dead inside the mothers body? Or situations like that.

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4 years ago  ::  May 04, 2010 - 3:16PM #6
matica
Posts: 3,065

May 4, 2010 -- 3:05PM, Ivandefendingtruth wrote:


 


(Psalm 139:13-16) 13 For you yourself produced my kidneys; You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. 14 I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware. 15 My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed And there was not yet one among them.


(Psalm 139:13-16) 13 For you yourself produced my kidneys; You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. 14 I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware. 15 My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed And there was not yet one among them.


The Creator of the heavens and the earth considers even the "embryo" a living being, a soul. To kill this soul (or any soul for that matter) is surely murder. 


 




How about forcing a child's doctor to withhold medical treatment causing that childs soul to die? Can you say hypocritical?

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4 years ago  ::  May 04, 2010 - 3:35PM #7
Ivandefendingtruth
Posts: 366

May 4, 2010 -- 3:12PM, Sulla Felix wrote:


May 4, 2010 -- 3:05PM, Ivandefendingtruth wrote:


 


(Psalm 139:13-16) 13 For you yourself produced my kidneys; You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. 14 I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware. 15 My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed And there was not yet one among them.


(Psalm 139:13-16) 13 For you yourself produced my kidneys; You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. 14 I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware. 15 My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed And there was not yet one among them.


The Creator of the heavens and the earth considers even the "embryo" a living being, a soul. To kill this soul (or any soul for that matter) is surely murder. 



Not true.  You kill animal souls all the time and this is not murder, is it?  Or, at least you have animal souls killed for food routinely, do you not?




Obviously the context was humans. 

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4 years ago  ::  May 04, 2010 - 3:42PM #8
ImDemeter2
Posts: 1,111

The Creator of the heavens and the earth considers even the "embryo" a  living being, a soul. To kill this soul (or any soul for that matter)  is surely murder.


 


I'm sorry, what? Have you actually read the Old Testament?

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4 years ago  ::  May 04, 2010 - 3:46PM #9
Phronesis
Posts: 2,233

On the locked thread, Yavanna asked:

older, where in your Bible does it specify abortion is murder?


Exodus 21:22—25.


While Christians are not under the Old Covenant, we can still see from what is therein written how Jehovah views matters.  Note this:


And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow.


Although the passage does not specifically state the death of the baby is what is here being addressed, the context strongly indicates that this is the case. In fact, since it does not specifically state it, then it would in all likelihood apply to either mother or child.

"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen ... ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, that I am God." - Isaiah 43:10, 12, ASV.
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4 years ago  ::  May 04, 2010 - 4:00PM #10
Imperfectense
Posts: 3,329

So how does the 'morning after' pill fit into all this?

WTS Bible Dictionary Insight-2 p. 1132 Truth
"Being “the spirit of the truth,” God’s holy spirit could never be the source of error but would protect Christ’s followers from doctrinal falsehoods. (Compare 1Jo 2:27; 4:1-6.)...)

Watchtower 1987 11/1 p. 29 Religion’s Tidal Wave—The Final Reckoning
Examine the religious institution to which you belong. Does what it stands for agree with the Bible in every way? If not, then your organization is part of “Babylon the Great,” or the world empire of false religion. Follow the command found at Revelation 18:4, which is: “Get out of her, my people, . . . if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.
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