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Switch to Forum Live View Which is riskier, abortion or childbirth?
5 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2010 - 2:01AM #1
Damianaraven
Posts: 71

CDC and WHO studies have shown that in 2005 in the US, only 7 women died as a result of abortion, while 440 died as a result of complications during pregnancy or childbirth. (Cromulent sources can and will be cited on demand.) I'm always hearing and reading about how bloody dangerous abortion is for women, but nobody considers the comparison. I can only think of two ways that an abortion could go fatally wrong - anesthesia booboo or torn uterus - but I'm sure I could list 20 ways to drop dead trying to have a baby.



It's also bandied about by the pro-life camp that oodles of women get depressed and even suicidal over the guilt caused by their abortion. I haven't done any research on the subject, but I sure would like to know how the numbers (both gross and proportional) measure up against post-partum depression. My point is that claiming abortion is "dangerous" is merely a woogie-boogie scare tactic to decry it as a human right. I call shenanigans on that!

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2010 - 3:07AM #2
Bei1052
Posts: 986

1.) Abortion (Unless you're trying to argue abortion v. pregnancy instead of abortion v. childbirth. Then that'd be another thing all together).


2.) The unborn have a right to an abortion? What about men? If not, then that kinda' undercuts the whole "abortion as a human right" claim, as a right not afforded to all humans isn't much of a human right. Plus, accepting that abortion is a human right, you'd get into the whole "Why the unborn have a 'right' to an abortion but not a right to not be killed?" thing.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2010 - 9:55PM #3
Yavanna
Posts: 3,149

Mar 30, 2010 -- 2:01AM, Damianaraven wrote:


CDC and WHO studies have shown that in 2005 in the US, only 7 women died as a result of abortion, while 440 died as a result of complications during pregnancy or childbirth. (Cromulent sources can and will be cited on demand.) I'm always hearing and reading about how bloody dangerous abortion is for women, but nobody considers the comparison. I can only think of two ways that an abortion could go fatally wrong - anesthesia booboo or torn uterus - but I'm sure I could list 20 ways to drop dead trying to have a baby.



It's also bandied about by the pro-life camp that oodles of women get depressed and even suicidal over the guilt caused by their abortion. I haven't done any research on the subject, but I sure would like to know how the numbers (both gross and proportional) measure up against post-partum depression. My point is that claiming abortion is "dangerous" is merely a woogie-boogie scare tactic to decry it as a human right. I call shenanigans on that!




Please cite the sources. Cool

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.
- J.R.R. Tolkien
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2010 - 9:57PM #4
Yavanna
Posts: 3,149

Mar 30, 2010 -- 3:07AM, Bei1052 wrote:


1.) Abortion (Unless you're trying to argue abortion v. pregnancy instead of abortion v. childbirth. Then that'd be another thing all together).


2.) The unborn have a right to an abortion? What about men? If not, then that kinda' undercuts the whole "abortion as a human right" claim, as a right not afforded to all humans isn't much of a human right. Plus, accepting that abortion is a human right, you'd get into the whole "Why the unborn have a 'right' to an abortion but not a right to not be killed?" thing.




What about men? Can men have children? No. End of the absurd line of reasoning.

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.
- J.R.R. Tolkien
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2010 - 12:05AM #5
Bei1052
Posts: 986

Apr 6, 2010 -- 9:57PM, Yavanna wrote:

What about men? Can men have children? No. End of the absurd line of reasoning.



As you pointed out, men can't have children. And as men can't have children, you can't exactly label a "right" which is tied to the ability to have children as a human right unless men aren't really humans. Of course, men are humans, which would mean that abortion can't be a human right since it's not a "right" afforded to all humans (Which is what I said the first time). QED.


Thanks for playing.


...And in case you're wondering, human rights are defined as any basic right or  freedom to which all human beings are entitled and in whose exercise a  government may not interfere (Including rights to life and liberty as  well as freedom of thought and expression and equality before the law) (Link).

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2010 - 12:54AM #6
Fraggle
Posts: 210

rather than arguing over which is riskier, why can't we do a better job of making pregnancy and childbirth safer? oh wait, because abortion is easier on everyone else who isn't the woman. her problem. leave her to it. so much for equality.


but for those who think it's no big deal that women are harmed by abortion:


www.abortioninjury.com/


www.silentnomoreawareness.org/


www.lifedynamics.com/Abortion_Prolife/Ab...


we can recall Toyota cars but God forbid we hold Planned Parenthood accountable for botched abortions and illegal activity.


 

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2010 - 3:53PM #7
McAtheist
Posts: 8,307

fraggle:  oh wait, because abortion is easier on everyone else who isn't the  woman. her problem. leave her to it. so much for equality.


According to a number of women I have talked to, abortion is often also easier on the WOMAN.  While pregnancy might be an "easier" solution to you or some woman you know, it is obviously not the "easier" choice for a lot of women.  I suspect that's why they get abortions in the first place, yes? 


One-size-fits-all "answers" to complicated social issues just don't work, hence the idea of pro-CHOICE, so that a woman can find the right answer for her.  Your implication that allowing a woman that choice promotes INequality makes no logical sense at all.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2010 - 3:57PM #8
Bei1052
Posts: 986

Choice is a misnomer, not simply because it's used in order to denote "freedom", and not even because it ignores what's being chosen, but because said people who hide behind the choice moniker won't extend that thought process to everything (Because, if they did, they'd quickly realize how asinine it is to allow people to do to another as they please according to their own wills).


...And abortion is only "complicated" because one side wants to make it complicated. It's actually fairly simple.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2010 - 4:12PM #9
McAtheist
Posts: 8,307

Bei: Choice is a misnomer, not simply because it's used in order to denote  "freedom", and not even because it ignores what's being chosen, but  because said people who hide behind the choice moniker won't extend that  thought process to everything (Because, if they did, they'd quickly  realize how asinine it is to allow people to do to another as they  please according to their own wills).  ...And abortion is only  "complicated" because one side wants to make it complicated. It's  actually fairly simple.


"Pro-choice" is at LEAST as honest as "pro-life;"  I understand the forum rules dictate that this is how we refer to the position, but it is obvious that many "pro-life" people are quite comfortable with an active military that kills people, which makes the description pretty dishonest, imho.


And for your edification, the issue isn't just abortion, but includes ideas of sexual freedom,  the rights of personal sovereignty over your own body, life-long commitments to another person's welfare, adoption, finances, etc.  Maybe your simplistic black-white thinking is because you are a male and you will never actually have to face the question?

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2010 - 7:11PM #10
Bei1052
Posts: 986

No. My simplistic black-and-white thinking is due to the fact that I typically skip over obfuscations and the sort (And my argument wouldn't be more-or-less valid if I were a female. Seriously. That's such a crappy argument, it's kind of amazing why people continue to use it). There's nothing worse then people who unecessarily overcomplicate an issue just because they can. It's annoying, least because it attempts to talk around the point. Anyway, on that note:


1.) You can be anti-war if you want. Just make sure that everyone else is anti-war, as well.


2.) The idea of "personal sovereignty over your body" is a total, complete and utter non-issue, as no one has complete control over their own body. Absolutely no one. And I can sit here and list at least twenty different instances of things you cannot do to and with your body that aren't exactly protested by the people who go on and on and on about "sovereignty".


3.) Sexual freedom = Freedom from responsibility? 'Cuz, ugh, that's pretty much what abortion is, as it kills that to which one would be responsible (Plus, the argument doesn't work for a man, and it would probably get him laughed out of court if he were to employ it).


4.) I'm not so sure what the statement "life-long commitments to another person's welfare, adoption, finances, etc" is supposed to mean, but at any rate people aren't parents, nor are they held to certain obligations, necessarily because they want to be. Indeed, the law often time-- What's that word?-- "Forces" people to provide some manner of care for someone else even if they don't want to.

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