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Switch to Forum Live View SOULS OF THE ABORTED
4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2010 - 2:38PM #11
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,741

Jan 14, 2010 -- 11:37AM, Marysara722 wrote:


What about the "souls" of all the fertilized eggs that weren't "implanted" onto the uterine wall and flushed away with the onset of monthly menses?

What about the "souls" of all the "miscarried" Z/E/Fs?

What about the "souls" of all the "stillborns"?





What about all the "souls" waiting for people to have sex and conceive? That's what I'd like to ask the religious people out there. Does God create souls and wait for people to have sex and conceive, or does the conception require God to come up with a soul to go into the zef? If it's the former, we'd better all get busy!

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2010 - 4:12PM #12
IDBC
Posts: 4,361

Howdy Godgirl


Jan 13, 2010 -- 6:23PM, Godgirl wrote:


In my oppinion the soul is simply the mind or brain. So if there is no brain formed then there is no soul. But that is just my oppinion.  



I would tend to agree with you.    I think that without the brain there would be no mind, and no conciousness.  I think that the mind-conciouness is the "soul".  


I am not certain at what stage of pregnancy  the brain is developed or at what stage of pregnancy the brain develops concusiness a self awarness.  


Would it be ok to have an abortion before the fetus-embroyo develops a brain that has conciouness and self-awarness? 


And what happens to the mind-conscouness-soul of embroyos that are aborted? 


Jan 14, 2010 -- 10:09AM, karbie wrote:


Howdy Karbie


I think that a Supreme Being capable of creating the Universe is also capable of knowing which pregnancies will end up full term with a human lifespan ahead,and those pregnancies that will end up being miscarried, aborted, or fail to implant and assign souls accordingly.



I would agree that since the Intelligent Designer is Omnicesent it would know beforehand which pregnancies will end up full term and which will not.  


The question is what happens to the souls that do not get carried to full term. 


 


Jan 14, 2010 -- 10:09AM, karbie wrote:


Adam was fully formed by God but did not come into being until God breathed life into him. So Adam was not alive, although complete in every other aspect, until the FIRST BREATH. ]/quote]


But both Adam, Eve were exceptions.  They were not "born" but "created".   Although the FIRST BREATH did and perhaps still does have its supporters. 


There is a debate among Theists as to when "ensoulment" occurs. 


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoulment


 


 


Jan 14, 2010 -- 10:09AM, karbie wrote:

I wouldn't consider that any late term baby capable of living shouldn't be given that chance, but in a case when the "baby" is missing things like a brain, late term abortion should still be allowed.



Ahhh but does a baby that is missing a brain, missing a soul? 


And what about a baby that has a birth defect that will cause the brain to be malformed and imposes severe...challenges to the baby life? 


Of course if you believe in the pre-existence of the soul then that would imply that the brain-mind is not the same as the soul. 


 


Jan 14, 2010 -- 10:09AM, karbie wrote:


I don't think that the soul would come in before there was a brain, beating heart, and some finger and toes. it would be pretty boring in the womb even in the last trimester, so I can't imagine agreeing to be in 'protective' custody and isolation for the entire pregnancy.



Among Christians it is NOW


Common views include ensoulment happening at the moment of conception, at the formation of the nervous system and brain, at the first brain activity, at the time of quickening, and when the fetus is able to survive independently of the uterus (viability).[1] Others place the time of ensoulment at the moment of birth, and others at the moment of first breath.


It is my understanding that babies and children who die before they reach a certain age and maturity to be held responsible for their.....transgressions-sins are sent to heaven.  This is based on the claim that a swell guy like God would not send a soul to hell if they soul was not guilty of committing a sin. 


Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You Smile


 

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2010 - 12:01AM #13
anidominus
Posts: 105

What happens to the "soul" of an aborted fetus?


1.  Nobody knows or at least we can't prove that anyone knows.


2.  It doesn't matter because regardless of where it goes we cant change it.


     2A.  If all fetus's went to heaven does that mean religious pro-lifers will stop complaining about abortion?  (After all, why complain when something good happens to someone.)  I dobut it.


     2B. If all fetus's went to hell, then short of proof, who would listen and would those who want the abortion even care?


When does ensoulment happen?


1.  Nobody knows this either. 


2.  It doesnt matter because regardless of when it happens we can't change it.


     2A.  If we could prove the soul doesn't enter a child until the 7th month would pro-lifers stop complaining?  I doubt it.


    2B.  If we could prove the soul enters a child at the moment of conception do you think pro-choicers are just going to shut-up about getting their abortions?  I doubt it.


At the end of the day, this paritcular issue doesn't matter at all.


I don't know of a single woman who's ever gotten an abortion because she didn't think her unborn child had a soul.  She might have used that as a justification, but it's never a reason.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2010 - 8:40AM #14
JRT
Posts: 338

 


It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a “person”. When they unite to form a zygote we certainly have a form of life. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person.


 


Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I chose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week. Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with?


 


Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?


 


These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Rarely the two zygotes (Mary and Margaret) merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a “chimera”. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?


 


These very serious questions of personhood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person. Is there a more reasonable understanding? I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester. For this reason I am against abortion beyond the twentieth week. Otherwise I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare.

the floggings will continue until morale improves
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2010 - 10:18AM #15
anidominus
Posts: 105

Aug 19, 2010 -- 8:40AM, JRT wrote:


 


It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a “person”. When they unite to form a zygote we certainly have a form of life. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person.


 


Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I chose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week. Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with?


 


Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?


 


These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Rarely the two zygotes (Mary and Margaret) merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a “chimera”. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?


 


These very serious questions of personhood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person. Is there a more reasonable understanding? I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester. For this reason I am against abortion beyond the twentieth week. Otherwise I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare.





I really want to answer this question.  However, you're off-topic as this thread is about what happens to the souls of aborted fetus's.  Please create a new thread.  I guess a good title would be  "Logical Problems with Soul Infusion at Conception" (or something like that)


Thanks!

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2010 - 10:30AM #16
JRT
Posts: 338

As I suggested in my essay on chimeras, I believe that the fetus does not achieve personhood (soul infusion?) till late in the second trimester. If I believed in a traditional heaven and hell I would say that a fetus would simply cease to exist if aborted early. If aborted late it would go to heaven because it is a totally innocent being.

the floggings will continue until morale improves
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2010 - 2:57PM #17
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

What happens to the souls of people who die after being shot?  What happens to the souls of fertilized eggs that never implanted?  What happens to the souls of miscarried fetuses?


Whatever it is...it's not relevant to the issue since a "soul" is not legally recognized as existing.

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 16, 2010 - 7:04PM #18
angpuppy
Posts: 520

Jan 13, 2010 -- 4:51PM, IDBC wrote:


My question is simple. 


What happens to the souls of those who are aborted ? 




Pope John Paul II had a group of theologians get together to discuss what happens to those who die before they are born and have a chance to be baptised.  There had been an unofficial traditional speculation that the souls of the unborn did not go to Hell because they had no actual sin, but could not go to Heaven due to their lack of Baptism.  As such, it was said that they existed in Limbo.


So, he wanted to know, is this Divine Tradition?  What can we know and what should the Church be teaching?  The answer.  We can only entrust their souls to the mercy of God.  We have absolutely no idea whatsoever.

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