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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 4:23PM #441
Erey
Posts: 19,149

Jan 17, 2010 -- 7:55AM, karbie wrote:


 


 


I do want to address something that was mentioned earlier--why would you assume that a majority of  the abortions of female  offspring in China  were late term? what is your source?


 


It stands to reason - the ability to know a child's gender used to be around 5 months gestation - that is here in the states. Even untill like the last 10 years it was better to wait untill 7 or 8 months to know the gender - more of a sure thing at that point.  


Now they have tests that you can tell at 3 months.  Still those are more expensive and a bit risky. I seriously doubt the poor of China and India - the farmers, etc.  are shelling out the big bucks to know at the third month and are instead waiting until 5+ months to know the gender of the child. 


 


 


 


 


 


 





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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 5:15PM #442
Bei1052
Posts: 986

Jan 16, 2010 -- 4:49PM, solfeggio wrote:


Very good point about Michael Vick and his dogs.  The logical conclusion then, must be that if he had no right to mistreat his dogs and make them suffer, then it must follow that a dog has an inherent right not to be mistreated.  Correct?  And this would be an unconditional right, then, wouldn't it?


And, if a dog has the right not to be mistreated, doesn't this same right apply to all life on earth?  In other words, if mistreating a dog (for any reason) is a criminal offense, then isn't mistreating a cow (by forcing her to keep having calves that are then taken away from her, and after a few years taking her to a slaughterhouse to endure that terrifying experience) much the same thing?  Isn't causing a pig to live a short, miserable life in a tiny enclosure and then subjecting her to the terrors of the slaughterhouse the same thing as well?


And what about poisoning rats and mice so that their insides dissolve? Or shooting at but only wounding deer so that they run off and die a lingering death?  Catching fish and injuring their gills and throats with a hook, but then releasing them into the water again to live out their lives in pain?


We humans cause incalculable suffering and misery and death to uncounted numbers of nonhumans - and to our fellow humans as well - all the time.  (For example, think about the pointless wars being waged by the Americans and their allies in the Middle East right now.  How many thousands and thousands of innocent people are losing their homes, suffering, and dying there?  And for nothing.)


...And yet, here you have people actually worrying about the terminating of an unfeeling embryo.


Boggles the mind.



Oh? So if a dog feels no pain then it would be okay to kill it? In which case, you should have no problem with applying anesthesia to an animal before mistreating it.


Jan 17, 2010 -- 7:55AM, karbie wrote:

I do want to address something that was mentioned earlier--why would you assume that a majority of  the abortions of female  offspring in China  were late term? what is your source?



Sex-selective abortions are generally late-term due to the fact that you can only reliably tell the gender of the unborn later-term. That's why.

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 6:28PM #443
LeahOne
Posts: 16,471

"If you do believe in god or higher power, do you really think that your god does not know the fertilized egg will not be born? Do you think your god would waste a soul on an egg that will not  be born?"


Good point, MC - especially when you realize that somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 (!) of all fertilized ova never get born.   Miscarriage, aka 'spontaneous abortion', is very common especially in the first month of gestation - when the embryo is too small to easily find, if indeed there even IS an 'embryo' (see: 'blighted ovum').


I wouldn't venture to say *when* anyone becomes ensouled.....

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 6:47PM #444
Abner1
Posts: 6,437

LeahOne wrote:


> I wouldn't venture to say *when* anyone becomes ensouled.....


On their 18th birthday?  :)

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 7:42PM #445
LeahOne
Posts: 16,471

Jan 17, 2010 -- 6:47PM, Abner1 wrote:


LeahOne wrote:


> I wouldn't venture to say *when* anyone becomes ensouled.....


On their 18th birthday?  :)





I'm a Jewish mother:  when is the fetus capable of living independant of the mother?  Upon graduation from medical school .....

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 7:50PM #446
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,790

Jan 17, 2010 -- 6:28PM, LeahOne wrote:


"If you do believe in god or higher power, do you really think that your god does not know the fertilized egg will not be born? Do you think your god would waste a soul on an egg that will not  be born?"


Good point, MC - especially when you realize that somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 (!) of all fertilized ova never get born.   Miscarriage, aka 'spontaneous abortion', is very common especially in the first month of gestation - when the embryo is too small to easily find, if indeed there even IS an 'embryo' (see: 'blighted ovum').


I wouldn't venture to say *when* anyone becomes ensouled.....



Thank you, you understood exactly what I meant. Smile

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 7:51PM #447
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,790

Jan 17, 2010 -- 7:42PM, LeahOne wrote:


Jan 17, 2010 -- 6:47PM, Abner1 wrote:


LeahOne wrote:


> I wouldn't venture to say *when* anyone becomes ensouled.....


On their 18th birthday?  :)





I'm a Jewish mother:  when is the fetus capable of living independant of the mother?  Upon graduation from medical school .....




Giggles

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 8:23PM #448
Abner1
Posts: 6,437

LeahOne wrote:


> I'm a Jewish mother:  when is the fetus capable of living independant of the


> mother?  Upon graduation from medical school .....


*laughs*  Exactly!  Unless, of course, they move back in ...  :)

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 9:53PM #449
solfeggio
Posts: 9,467

LeahOne -


Thank you very much for your kind and understanding post.  The thing with disabled children is that, no matter how severe is the disability, or how long the child has been this way (in our grandson's case since birth seven years ago), every time we see him we find ourselves thinking: Has he shown some improvement?  Is he really holding his spoon by himself?  Was that a word that he tried to say?


I guess you never lose hope.  'Hope is a good breakfast but a poor supper.'  (Francis Bacon)


You and other posters have written eloquently about your miscarriages, and I know all too well what that is, because I miscarried what would have been my second child at five months.  This all happened more than thirty years ago, but in some ways it still seems as if it was only yesterday.  These are the sorts of life experiences that never fade.


After I miscarried (in hospital), I had the D & C, and was discharged on the fourth day.  It was a very strange, empty feeling.  You were pregnant, and then suddenly you weren't anymore.  You grieve the loss of the child, and you are reluctant to put away the maternity clothes.  I found that I wanted to talk about what had happened, but friends and relatives were reluctant.


My best talks were with my aunt, who had had a late miscarriage of twins herself.  She knew just what to say. 


My doctor was very supportive, which helped a lot, too.  He said that miscarriage was very common, and that since most of the time nobody knew what caused it, you shouldn't feel guilty.


I was lucky, because a year later I got pregnant again and had our daughter, who is now 36 and a teacher who is married to a physicist.  (This sort of thing is important, because I, too, am a Jewish mother - well, agnostic Jew - and we used to joke with our daughter about how she really had to marry a doctor.  LOL  Her husband is a Ph.D., so he's addressed as Dr.)


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 10:05PM #450
mountain_man
Posts: 40,224

Jan 17, 2010 -- 4:01PM, arielg wrote:

Some people are awfully nice to their cars.  Not necessarily because they think it feels something.



If you want to equate an automobile with a human being, then go ahead. I have no interest in such bizarre arguments.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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