Jan 17, 2010 -- 6:28PM, LeahOne wrote:

...I wouldn't venture to say *when* anyone becomes ensouled.....

How many references in the Torah, or the Old Testament, are there to "first breath"? There must be at least a dozen such references to life starting, or ensoulment, upon the first breath, the breath of life, and all that jazz. Gen 2:7 is one such reference that comes to mind. Not one reference about life/ensoulment at conception. That is if one believes in such bible stuff.

mainecaptain -

I haven't seen you around in awhile, so it was a pleasure to read your posts.

As usual, we agree on everything!

"When you think about saving life, this expands to include all creatures ('great and small' as the poem goes), and you realise that you could not intentionally hurt any of them.  And then, you find yourself feeling that you must help people, too, which led us to becoming very active in volunteering at our local Community Centre.  Our current 'project' is to put together bags of clothing and toys for two refugee families from Somalia that have just arrived in our country and need supplies.

As you have pointed out, it is the complete opposite of manufacturing weapons which will only be used for destruction.  And it gives one unimaginable joy."

Solfeggio, your actions as related above are very Jewish.  Tikkun olam, repairing creation.  : ))   And yes, we are following Torah to choose life over death, 'butter' over 'guns' - as well as to welcome the stranger who comes to our land for refuge.

You are also right about how cruel hope can be, day after day : ((   And how nobody ever seems to talk about miscarriages - though all sorts of people came out of the woodwork to talk to us *afterwards* because they understood how terribly alone we felt. 

Jan 17, 2010 -- 10:12PM, mountain_man wrote:

Jan 17, 2010 -- 6:28PM, LeahOne wrote:

...I wouldn't venture to say *when* anyone becomes ensouled.....

How many references in the Torah, or the Old Testament, are there to "first breath"? There must be at least a dozen such references to life starting, or ensoulment, upon the first breath, the breath of life, and all that jazz. Gen 2:7 is one such reference that comes to mind. Not one reference about life/ensoulment at conception. That is if one believes in such bible stuff.

MM, this is interesting.  I'd be curious to hear from the Fundamentalist/literalist folks- if it really does say this, and mean this, what is their response?

Of course, my response  (which, curiously, is usually used against the conservatives) is that scripture is not an absolute, does not stand on its own, and must always be viewed with an eye towards both the context in which it was written and that in which it is being read.

The point here being (as in other cases) we know a lot more about things now, from a scientific and perhaps moral perspective. We have fetal heartbeat monitors, we know how and when bodily systems, including brains,  develop; and we now know that children are capable of surviving well before completion of normal term.

So, I think, in terms of a reasonable modern societal standard, "human life begins at birth" is no more tenable than "human life begins at conception".  This is the case put forward by the Roe decision, and so far as I can tell it is also the sense of the American people (where less than 20% think abortion should be legal in all cases, and less than 20 % think it should be illegal in all cases). 

Jan 18, 2010 -- 8:42AM, LeahOne wrote:

You are correct about that, MM - and I do follow Torah.  I do not, however, think that my religious beliefs should be the basis of US Law because that is not the way our FF designed the system - and because such religious 'affiliation' would pollute the Constitution, and dilute the civil liberties of ALL of us.

I wasn't saying your beliefs should be, but I was commenting on those that believe that book says life begins at conception. There is no support for it in the OT/Torah. From my readings in sociology it was a common belief going back thousands of years that life began on first breath. They saw babies being born and not moving for the first second or so, then it took that first breath, then the baby cried and started moving. It is a recent belief in the christian religion that "life" begins at conception.

Indeed, there is a strong tradition in 'post-Exilic' Judaism (ca 586 BCE) of placing the country's laws *above* those of Torah if there's a conflict - this assumes said laws wouldn't require us to violate the most basic principles of Judaism, like monotheism.

No religious belief should be enacted into law. When that happens, people suffer. The Founding Fathers saw that and did not want that for their new country.