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Switch to Forum Live View Ohio Wants a Second Try at Executing Inmate - Your Thoughts?
5 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2009 - 4:41PM #201
mountain_man
Posts: 40,170

Dec 30, 2009 -- 4:36PM, rangerken wrote:

If you look at capital punishment as 'revenge' then I agree with you Mountainman.



I'm just calling it as it is; capital punishment is pure revenge. Nothing else.


If you look at as justice in a very limited set of circumstances it's not.



If someone dies because of it, it is not justice. It's revenge.


I'm never happy with taking life, particularly since I have considerable expeience doing that. I just think there are times when it is justified although always something to be reegretted as being necessary.



Since your only tool is a bullet, everyone is a target. Self defense is justified, revenge is not.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2009 - 4:58PM #202
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

OK MM, I see your point about self defense vs. revenge.


My mind isn't closed on this... gotta think about it. This might make an inteesting dinner conversation with my wife. Frankly, I really don't know for sure what Mary Clare thinks about this. She's a practicing catholic so I'm sure that will influence her opinion. I'll bring it up and if we do get into it I'll post the gist of our conversation.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2009 - 6:11PM #203
Abner1
Posts: 6,431

appy20 wrote:


> Ted Bundy was awaiting trial and no, I wouldn't want him executed prior to trial.


Then the death penalty for murder would have done nothing to stop him (he didn't kill anyone after he was convicted) and your statement that it would have saved the lives of his Florida victims is mistaken.  What would have saved the lives of his Florida victims would be better escape-proofing of jails, which is a different issue.  (Though you could relate it to the issue of the death penalty if you can find examples of people who escaped and killed *after* they had been convicted of crimes that you would have had them executed for.)


> Which brings up another pet peeve of mine.  Speedy trials.  He should have been held


> under tighter restrictions, tried quickly and executed.


Agreed with a few quibbles.  Unfortunately, speeding up the justice system would be difficult in many respects - not only would it require more resources (more judges, etc.) but it often takes time for the police to collect the evidence needed to gain a conviction.  If they sped up the trials, they would have less time to collect evidence and double-check it, resulting in both fewer convictions of the guilty and more mistakes (which might result in more conviction of the innocent).  Alas, you can't do just one thing.


> Once again, splitting hairs on intrinsic value.  Intrinsic value is a human concept that


> is applied.  We don't have an organ inside of us called intrinsic value.  Even if intrinsic


> value MEANS  inherent value it really isn't because ultimately something or someone


> has to decide on that value. 


All this statement means is that *you* don't really believe that intrinsic value is possible - it doesn't fit into your world-view.  (This is probably why you kept asking who gave the intrinsic value.)  To those who do believe in intrinsic value, it really is intrinsic, not extrinsic.  Apparently you believe that all value is extrinsic, but others do not share that belief.

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2009 - 7:05PM #204
mountain_man
Posts: 40,170

Dec 30, 2009 -- 4:58PM, rangerken wrote:

OK MM, I see your point about self defense vs. revenge.


My mind isn't closed on this... gotta think about it. This might make an inteesting dinner conversation with my wife. Frankly, I really don't know for sure what Mary Clare thinks about this. She's a practicing catholic so I'm sure that will influence her opinion. I'll bring it up and if we do get into it I'll post the gist of our conversation.



Some catholics are for the death penalty, as are some Atheists. Opposition to the death penalty comes from inside a person, not from their religion or lack of religion. It starts with how easily the person can devalue, or dehumanize, another. I can't do either so I am fundamentally opposed to the killing of my fellow humans as a form of revenge.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2009 - 7:35PM #205
Lonesentinel
Posts: 2,423

Dec 30, 2009 -- 4:41PM, mountain_man wrote:


...I'm just calling it as it is; capital punishment is pure revenge. Nothing else.





I would disagree...and when I find time, I'll elaborate more.

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2009 - 8:50PM #206
mountain_man
Posts: 40,170

Dec 30, 2009 -- 7:35PM, Lonesentinel wrote:


Dec 30, 2009 -- 4:41PM, mountain_man wrote:


...I'm just calling it as it is; capital punishment is pure revenge. Nothing else.





I would disagree...and when I find time, I'll elaborate more.




Since killing someone is not any kind of justice, the "safety" argument is based on emotions and not facts, there is no deterence effect in capital punishment, the only reason is for revenge. I don't see how elaborating could change any of that.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2009 - 10:33PM #207
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

Like I said I bounced this off my wife at dinner. Mary Clare thinks that the death penalty is justified only under a combination of extreme circumstances (rape and murder of a child for example) and only if there is no doubt at all about guilt. But like me, she's not 'comfotable' with it.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2009 - 11:00PM #208
Bei1052
Posts: 986

The logic behind capital punishment is incredibly simple; When you violate someone else's right to live, then you forfeit your own right to live. This has nothing to do with "exacting revenge", but rather appropriating a punishment fitting the crime. If capital punishment was revenge motivated, then why are there not hundreds upon thousands of executions per year? I'll tell you why; because capital punishment is fairly limited in its application, generally only applied in cases of mass or repeat murders. People seem to act as if people are executed left and right. They're not, nor should they be.


Anyway, here's something to ponder for you. Let's assume that we have a mass murderer, guilty of ten murders. There's no death penalty, so he's thrown in jail with multiple life sentences with no chance of parole. For whatever reason he escapes, and committs ten more murders. Now what do you do? Throw him back in jail with the same sentence? Or, better yet, what about someone like Andrei Chikatilo, who was convicted of 52 murders, consisting entirely (Or almost entirely) of women and children?

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2009 - 12:25AM #209
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

Well, if a man's convicted of 52 murders, you can only kill him once...


And if it turns out he was innocent all along, what then?  Say, "Gee, we're sorry about that" to his relatives?

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2009 - 12:26AM #210
mountain_man
Posts: 40,170

Dec 30, 2009 -- 10:33PM, rangerken wrote:

Like I said I bounced this off my wife at dinner. Mary Clare thinks that the death penalty is justified only under a combination of extreme circumstances (rape and murder of a child for example) and only if there is no doubt at all about guilt. But like me, she's not 'comfotable' with it.



Violence is not a solution. Killing someone is a violent act that when done by the state only diminishes the value of life in that society. Violence only breeds more violence.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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