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Switch to Forum Live View Abortion is Murder.
5 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2009 - 10:02AM #1
Damianaraven
Posts: 71

Despite the fact that I'm very pro choice, I don't believe that the act of abortion should be sugar coated to make it more palatable. When a woman has an abortion, she is taking a human life. I think life begins at conception because a fetus is obviously quite alive. Therefore, to have an abortion is to kill a person. Having established that, one may wonder how on earth I could think it's OK to allow a woman to take an innocent human life.


Until a fetus is viable, meaning it is able to survive outside the body of its mother, it is a part of that mother's body - the same as her arm or her appendix or even a cancerous tumor. Therefore, it is her property in a way that a born child could never be. If she doesn't want that child in there, it has NO RIGHT to take up residence, consume resources, damage her body, and cause excruciating pain on its way out. My views on abortion are not about trivializing the value of a fetus' life. They are about honoring a woman's right to control her own body, no matter what the cost.


The ultimate question boils down to fetus versus woman. Does a fetus have more right to inhabit a woman's body than said woman has to decide who or what gets to live inside her? Since the fetus is utterly dependent on the woman's resources and good will, I say no. This is the law of nature. The weak and dependent will ALWAYS have fewer rights and privileges than those in control. Is this a fair deal for the innocent baby who's done nothing more than be conceived? It is not, but when has nature ever been fair?

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2009 - 10:11AM #2
Bei1052
Posts: 986

First and foremost, the ZEF is never considered to be a part of its mother's body. But, moving on. I'm not so sure how you can rationalize murder. It's... Odd... To put it mildly. If abortion is murder, then it's always wrong. Can you think of any time when murder isn't wrong?

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2009 - 10:22AM #3
Xxchristin022xx
Posts: 67

I think you are right.  Abortion is murder, but it is a women's choice to make.  I am also pro-choice, but I think there needs to be some responsibility on the women's part.  I think abortions should not be used a form of birth control. 


I really enjoyed reading your post.

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2009 - 10:30AM #4
Kwinters
Posts: 21,905

Oct 27, 2009 -- 10:02AM, Damianaraven wrote:


Despite the fact that I'm very pro choice, I don't believe that the act of abortion should be sugar coated to make it more palatable. When a woman has an abortion, she is taking a human life. I think life begins at conception because a fetus is obviously quite alive. Therefore, to have an abortion is to kill a person. Having established that, one may wonder how on earth I could think it's OK to allow a woman to take an innocent human life.


Until a fetus is viable, meaning it is able to survive outside the body of its mother, it is a part of that mother's body - the same as her arm or her appendix or even a cancerous tumor. Therefore, it is her property in a way that a born child could never be. If she doesn't want that child in there, it has NO RIGHT to take up residence, consume resources, damage her body, and cause excruciating pain on its way out. My views on abortion are not about trivializing the value of a fetus' life. They are about honoring a woman's right to control her own body, no matter what the cost.


The ultimate question boils down to fetus versus woman. Does a fetus have more right to inhabit a woman's body than said woman has to decide who or what gets to live inside her? Since the fetus is utterly dependent on the woman's resources and good will, I say no. This is the law of nature. The weak and dependent will ALWAYS have fewer rights and privileges than those in control. Is this a fair deal for the innocent baby who's done nothing more than be conceived? It is not, but when has nature ever been fair?




I don't know that anyone sugar coast abortion.  It is a difficult experience.


Abortion is difficult because two important values are in conflict:


1) Self-determination.  The idea that human beings should have control over their own lives and bodies is an important one in Western thought.  It is this notion of inherent human freedom that, in part, was a moral basis of the Enlightenment and by way of the British Enlightenment made its way into the American Constitution, and is now a well-accepted norm.


2) Life.  We recognise that human life is special.  However, human life is not universally special.


We kill people in wars, we will people for crimes, we do not prosecute people who kill in self-defence.


 


Therefore the question is: when is killing acceptable and when it is wrong (murder).


The problem with the abortion debate is that those who oppose it want to limit the discussion to the woman and the embryo/fetus/baby.  As if abortion takes place without context.


Those who support legal abortion want to include the EXPERIENCES of the woman, the context within which the decision is made.


For instance, if a woman already has three children which she can barely afford and she falls pregnant, why isn't a moral choice to terminate the pregancy to protect her existing children?


Part of the problem is that comparatively rich, fat Westerns do not have first hand experience of how out of control a woman's life can become without access to contraception and abortion.


I strongly recommend everyone watch this BBC video clip and then say contraceptions and abortion should be banned no matter the consequences:


news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7...

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2009 - 10:36AM #5
Kwinters
Posts: 21,905

Oct 27, 2009 -- 10:22AM, Xxchristin022xx wrote:


I think you are right.  Abortion is murder, but it is a women's choice to make.  I am also pro-choice, but I think there needs to be some responsibility on the women's part.  I think abortions should not be used a form of birth control. 


I really enjoyed reading your post.




 


First, abortion IS a form of birth control!  By definition it gives one the ability to control whether or not one gives birth.  That is birth control.


Second, I think its a complete myth that women reject using contraception in favor of the pain, hassel and personal expense to have an abortion.  How many insurance providers cover abortion services?



How many women have you ever met who say, 'oh, I don't use birth control, I just pay out of pocket to get an abortion.'


It's nonsense put about by those who oppose abortion who are trying to convince people that women are morally deficient, mentally incompetent and personally irresponsible - not to mention sluts who are seeking to avoid the responsibilities of sex.


Claiming women use abortion as another form of contraception is woman-hating, pure and simple.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2009 - 10:38AM #6
Bei1052
Posts: 986

So what would you call it when a woman gets multiple abortions because she wasn't using any form of contraceptives (And, yes, it does happen. Far more often than most who are PC will admit)?


...And abortion can't be a contraceptive anyway, since it occurs after conception <_<

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2009 - 10:41AM #7
Kwinters
Posts: 21,905

Oct 27, 2009 -- 10:38AM, Bei1052 wrote:


So what would you call it when a woman gets multiple abortions because she wasn't using any form of contraceptives (And, yes, it does happen. Far more often than most who are PC will admit)?


...And abortion can't be a contraceptive anyway, since it occurs after conception <_<




You're just making things up.  Where is your evidence?


Of course you don't have any - you repeat lies designed to demean women without even questioning them.


And what does that say about your willingness to believe the worst about women?


 


And of course I know it's not a contraception - that was the whole point of using the term in that sentence - in order to illuminate the paradox.  Abortion is a form of birth control, but people don't conceptually distinguish between birth control and contraception.


 


 


 

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2009 - 10:48AM #8
Bei1052
Posts: 986

Oct 27, 2009 -- 10:41AM, Kwinters wrote:

You're just making things up.  Where is your evidence?


Of course you don't have any - you repeat lies designed to demean women without even questioning them.


And what does that say about your willingness to believe the worst about women?



*le sigh*


Fifty-four percent of women obtaining their first abortion were using contraceptives when they became pregnant. The percentage did not differ significantly among women obtaining their second abortion, but was slightly and significantly lower for women obtaining their third or higher-order abortion (50%).



Page 22 has the full depth analysis under the "Repeat abortion and contraceptive use patterns". And that's taken from a PC agency, who's basically the statistical arm of Planned Parenthood.


So, seriously. Let's stop with the whole "I'm lying"/"I'm making stuff up" lines. It gets annoying after a while. Let's also get past the whole "I'm trying to demean women" line as well, as none of it is true.


And of course I know it's not a contraception - that was the whole point of using the term in that sentence - in order to illuminate the paradox.  Abortion is a form of birth control, but people don't conceptually distinguish between birth control and contraception.



I was responding to your last sentence but okay...

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2009 - 11:02AM #9
Damianaraven
Posts: 71

Oct 27, 2009 -- 10:11AM, Bei1052 wrote:


Can you think of any time when murder isn't wrong?




Absolutely! If someone is threatening the safety, security, and happiness of me or my family, I will kill that person without the slightest compunction. This includes an unexpected fetus who might take up residence in my uterus and set about to damage my body, risk my health, and ultimately become another child who will demand resources I've set aside for myself and my family. If I get pregnant and I want to have a child, great for everyone! If I do not want to have a child, out it goes. Really, if you want to look at it from another angle, it could be considered more of an eviction than a murder. If my landlord were to kick me out (for whatever reason) would it be his fault that I would be homeless without the house he previously provided? It's too bad that we don't have the technology to transplant fetuses or incubate them artificially. This would solve A LOT of problems, even if it did cause a massive population boom that could easily cause some hardcore suffering the world over.

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2009 - 11:24AM #10
Bei1052
Posts: 986

Oct 27, 2009 -- 11:02AM, Damianaraven wrote:

Absolutely! If someone is threatening the safety, security, and happiness of me or my family, I will kill that person without the slightest compunction.



That's not considered murder. That's justifiable homicide. This is what I was getting at. You see, you'll never be able to think of a circumstance in which abortion is murder which wouldn't always make it wrong, for murder is always wrong and you cannot find me a situation in which it isn't wrong.


This includes an unexpected fetus who might take up residence in my uterus and set about to damage my body, risk my health, and ultimately become another child who will demand resources I've set aside for myself and my family.



Unless you're the Virgin Mary or a shark, a fetus doesn't just "show up" in your uterus. You have to engage in sex, rape nonewithstanding (And allow it to gestate for a while, but I'm just being facetious with that one).


If I get pregnant and I want to have a child, great for everyone! If I do not want to have a child, out it goes. Really, if you want to look at it from another angle, it could be considered more of an eviction than a murder. If my landlord were to kick me out (for whatever reason) would it be his fault that I would be homeless without the house he previously provided?



Even though it depends on the state, have you ever heard of an illegal eviction? That's what abortion would be akin to. A landlord can't just terminate a lease and kick you out because he or she feels like it. There's gotta' be some significant breach of the lease or something illegal going on.


It's too bad that we don't have the technology to transplant fetuses or incubate them artificially.



Yup, it is.


This would solve A LOT of problems, even if it did cause a massive population boom that could easily cause some hardcore suffering the world over.



Given current trends, it wouldn't make that much of a difference.

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