Oct 19, 2009 -- 8:00AM, Tolerant Sis wrote:

What Mary Sara is saying, what I have said, and what you just seem to ignore, is this:  Let's assume for the sake of argument that the fetus is a full child, a full person, with all the rights attendant on personhood.  Okay, you got your wish in this thought experiment, the fetus is co-equal with its mother.

So, in what universe is the mother required to accept a serious medical risk to herself (pregnancy) to save the fetus' life?

Is she required to take any medical risk to save the fetus' already-born brothers and sisters? No. The law cannot force her to give up even a pint of blood to save one of them, even if SHE is responsible for the need for that blood, through accident, negligence, or deliberate willful abuse.

Is she required to put her own well-being in jeopardy to save the fetus' older brothers and sisters? No. The law cannot force her to jump into a cold lake or dash into a burning building to save an already born child. 

What you are asking for, Zef, is not co-equal rights for the fetus; you are asking for SPECIAL rights for the fetus. You want the fetus NOT to be its mother's equal, but its mother's master.  In short, what you are asking for is second-class citizenship for women who happen to be pregnant.

It should not surprise you in the least that this position is not acceptable to women.  

Until the fetus can be raised to birth in a location other than a woman's body, she has dominion over it.  That means that some fetuses will be aborted while others come to term, in the manner the pregnant woman chooses.

Your choice, as a young male, is to make damn sure you never put a woman in the position to have to choose. Because not only does the fetus not have a say, neither do you.

Men and women don't "have to choose" abortion. Women and men can and have lived their entire life without any knowledge of abortion. And countless men and women have had abortion forced upon them regardless if they chose anything or not, so again they did not 'have to choose". And yes I most certainly do have a say. The Constitution of the United States of America guarantees that I have a say.

Oct 19, 2009 -- 2:50PM, mountain_man wrote:

Oct 19, 2009 -- 2:41PM, Zef wrote:

Men and women don't "have to choose" abortion. ....

Men cannot chose to have an abortion, only women can do that. Do you realize that men cannot get pregnant?

The Constitution of the United States of America guarantees that I have a say.

No, it does not. You do not have a say in what goes on inside the body of another person. You can babble on all you want about it, but the law states that it is none of your business. The same Constitution that protects your freedom of speech from interference by the government also protects a persons right to privacy. The medical and reproductive choices made by a woman are a private matter that YOU have no say in.

How does my constitutional right to freedom of speech interefere with this so called "right to privacy" that isn't in the constitution. And you keep "babbling" about your "right to privacy" being interfered with by my right to freedom of speech without a single example of how or when  that has occurred. Or why you insist on harrassing me with this malfeasance.

Oct 19, 2009 -- 3:28PM, Marysara722 wrote:

Oct 19, 2009 -- 11:09AM, Barbie1637 wrote:

All I know is ,you can all use your pompous  language all you want.

I just love it when some PLers come into this debate with their guns a-blazing.
Oh but wait, I see you using "your pompous language all you want" too.
Funny how that works eh? --You get to criticize before you even bother to debate.  How cordial of you.

B << It seems you are all passing by the fact that abortion is wrong,no matter when it is done.The first week,the second it doesn't matter.

Hmm, in many instances, no, it is not "... wrong, no matter" what you happen to think because obviously many "sapient" people disagree with you.

B << If any of you had a sapient mind,you would know this.

And ad-hom insults will get you nowhere within a debate.

B << It does not matter if it has a tail or does not have a tail.Murder is murder,no matter how you look at it.

Once again, that's your opinion and others disagree.

B << God did not create that child ,to be murdered.

And who says? ---Do you have a hot-line directly from god's mouth to your ears?

B << He made that child because it was what he wanted.

Oh really now? ---And your proof is where over your assertion?

B << If he did not want the child to be born he wouldn't have created it.

Silly me, and all this time I thought two people had to have sexual intercourse in order to "create" a child.

B << If he decides he don't want the child born,he will take care of it.

Oh really now? ---That's hysterical you know because what about ALL the disadvantaged kids out there in the world that your god just doesn't give a crap about now as it is?

B << It is not our place to decide who should be born and who shouldn't.

Says who?

B << The plain fact of the matter is,if you don't want a baby ,don't do anything to get one.

Utoh, here it comes, the old "don't open your legs" routine. ---And all the while you're forgetting the humans are sexual beings.

B << Plain and simple.

The old thing that is "plain and simple" is that all women should have a right to decide about their own reproductive matters and their own progeny.

B << The people who have had one will answer for it, when it is there time,and the people who done them will have even more to answer for.

Oh and are you god now too? --Instead of just speaking for god?

B << Oh and I have had 3 kids and 2 c-sections.I knew the risk when I became pregnant.

So? ---Ergo you made a choice.

B << I also have a heart condition,but that was not my children's fault.

And yet you took the "risk" anyway of leaving your children motherless.
Oh and I don't recall anyone ever blaming their children for conditions that are not "their fault."

B << Once again,don't get pregnant if you are afraid to have a baby.

Who said that being "afraid to have a baby" is the only reason that women have abortions?
I was "afraid" of having a baby all three times with my pregnancies, especially after the first once I completely went through it and it's nothing to sneeze at because each pregnancy is different from the next and each one is serious in and of itself.

B << Don't kill the baby,because you let your fear run you.

"Once again," a "baby" is not being killed because "babies" live outside the womb.

 

So, when you see a pregnant girl smile with pride, and hear her announce "my baby just kicked" do you admonish her and go and on with endless droll and condescending comments untill she bursts into tears and goes crying home to daddy.