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8 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2009 - 11:34PM #71
Justme333
Posts: 1,101

A couple of posts have been removed.  The subject of this debate board is abortion, not each other.  Consider this post as notification instead of a private message, and try to not make this personal.


 


Justme333
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Abortion Debate Board

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2009 - 11:56PM #72
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754

www.newsweek.com/id/212017/page/1


He doesn't do abortions as late as Dr. Hern, and the writing isn't as evocative; still interesting, though.

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2009 - 9:44AM #73
Tolerant Sis
Posts: 4,201

Bei,


I know you don't understand biology particularly well, but this is simple fact.  Once a fetus is born, it engages in gas exchange with the wider environment; it starts metabolizing on its own; it makes its own vitamin D and eliminates waste.  That is far different from requiring another human person's body to perform these homeostatic functions.  


Endothermy is one of the last homeostatic functions that the young human can perform, and young neonates are not good at regulating internal body temperature until they are about six months old.  


The inability to perform basic life functions on one's own puts one in a twilight world of life versus nonlife.  For example, biologists do not consider viruses 'alive' (even though they have some characteristics of life) because they are unable to perform too many life functions independently.  


I know the facts disagree with your ideology, but that's the way it is.


In terms of 'why you bother' to state things that are not true, I can't imagine either, but I am sure you have some reason.

First amendment fan since 1793.
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2009 - 9:50AM #74
faith713
Posts: 3,892

Aug 16, 2009 -- 11:56PM, bluehorserunning wrote:


www.newsweek.com/id/212017/page/1


He doesn't do abortions as late as Dr. Hern, and the writing isn't as evocative; still interesting, though.




Carhart is just as sick as Hern and Tiller. Here is what he said:


 


    "I know that the fetus is alive during the process most of the time because I can see fetal heartbeat on the ultrasound... I think brain death would occur because the suctioning to remove contents is only two or three seconds. So somewhere in that period of time-obviously not when you penetrate the skull, because people get shot in the head and they don't die immediately from that, if they are going to die at all-so that probably is not sufficient to kill the fetus. But I think removing the brain contents eventually will... My intent in every abortion I have ever done is to kill the fetus and terminate the pregnancy."
    -LeRoy Carhart, testifying under oath in 1997 about what he does to facilitate abortion, quoted in theAsheville Tribune.

    "The fetus, in many cases, dies just as a human adult or child would: it bleeds to death as it is torn from limb to limb... The fetus can be alive at the beginning of the dismemberment process and can survive for a time while its limbs are being torn off."
    -LeRoy Carhart, as quoted by Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy in Carhart v. Stenberg

    "This act covers every D&E [dilation and evacuation] that I did. Everything that I do to cause an abortion is an overt act. . . The fetuses are alive at the time of delivery. [There is a heartbeat] very frequently."
    -LeRoy Carhart, testifying under oath that language in the partial-birth abortion ban act bans more than just partial-birth abortion, Carhart v. Ashcroft (April 1, 2004).

    "Well, I was telling Ms. Smith at lunch today that we're talking about a fetus that's not only been dead for 48 hours, but we're talking about a fetus that has been dead for 48 hours in essentially a warming oven or crock pot. It has been kept at a hundred degrees for 48 hours. And that's enough temperature to cook meat. So we are not only dealing with a fetus that has been dead in my practice, we are dealing with a fetus that's both dead and soft-so it's much more pliable."
    -LeRoy Carhart, testifying under oath on the safety of his abortion methods, in a deposition taken forCarhart v. Ashcroft, April 1, 2004.

    Carhart said at least once a month, an entire fetus is expelled from the mother during a D&E he is performing. "The fetuses are alive at the time of delivery," he said. There is a heartbeat "very frequently."
    -LeRoy Carhart, The Associated Press, April 1, 2004, "Doctor: Law Would Outlaw Many Abortions"

    blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=b...

Here is another article about Carhart:




"After I posted quotes from an interview with Dr. LeRoy Carhart comparing the murder of late-term abortion Dr. George Tiller to Martin Luther King, I got this comment from Alveda King, niece of the slain civil rights leader.


“For LeRoy Carhart to mention the murder of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who worked through peaceful and non-violent means, in the same breath with that of George Tiller, whose work ended peace and brought violence to babies in the womb, is offensive beyond belief,” she said.  “The analogy is just wrong.


“Dr. Carhart also speaks of hate crimes,” she added.  “I would simply ask him, is it not hateful to regard an entire class of people as non-human because they’re unwanted?”





 

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."--John14:6

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.-- John 3:16

"We love Him because He first loved us."--1 John 4:9-10

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear ... "
1 John 4:18
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2009 - 10:49AM #75
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,750

faith,


The vast majority of abortions are done before 12 weeks, and do not involve the methods discussed in your most recent post.  Abortions after viability are done only in cases of severe threat to the woman, or severe fetal abnormality. Prior to 24 weeks, the fetus is not likely to have the ability to feel pain (source).


I don't think it's "sick" to perform an abortion on a viable fetus in order to save the woman's life, or protect her health when her pregnancy has gone terribly wrong. However, if a woman choses to continue the pregnancy despite serious threats to her health, survival, or that of her fetus, I support her choice.


I don't think it's sick to allow a grieving woman/couple who wants to prevent the suffering of a terribly malformed fetus, e.g. one with no brain, to abort it rather than giving birth and having the baby die within minutes/hours. To me that's not "sick" -- that's compassionate. I realize there are women who face this situation and choose to give birth rather than abort, and I support their choice.


IMO, it requires an incredible lack of compassion to foist your own wishes on other people regardless of the heartache and misery it causes them.

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2009 - 3:57PM #76
faith713
Posts: 3,892

Aug 17, 2009 -- 10:49AM, newsjunkie wrote:


faith,


The vast majority of abortions are done before 12 weeks, and do not involve the methods discussed in your most recent post.  Abortions after viability are done only in cases of severe threat to the woman, or severe fetal abnormality. Prior to 24 weeks, the fetus is not likely to have the ability to feel pain (source).



Some information about your source:


"One author, Susan J. Lee, a medical student, is also a lawyer who for eight months from 1999 to 2000 worked in the legal department at NARAL, an abortion rights group. Another author, Dr. Eleanor A. Drey, performs abortions and is medical director of an abortion clinic."


www.albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=23...


Other sources state the fetus may feel pain after 11 weeks:


"In fact, there is a steadily increasing body of medical evidence and literature supporting the conclusion that a fetus may feel pain from around 11 to 13 weeks, or even as early as 5.5 weeks.3 Indeed, there is some evidence that fetal suffering may actually be more intense due to the uneven maturation of fetal neurophysiology.4 A British survey of neuroscientists showed that 80% of the neuroscientists participating in the survey felt that pain relief should be given to a fetus for abortions after 11 weeks gestation.5


 


Aug 17, 2009 -- 10:49AM, newsjunkie wrote:

 I don't think it's "sick" to perform an abortion on a viable fetus in order to save the woman's life, or protect her health when her pregnancy has gone terribly wrong. However, if a woman choses to continue the pregnancy despite serious threats to her health, survival, or that of her fetus, I support her choice.



What about the millions of babies that are tortured and suffer agonizing deaths during an abortion? There is no reason for it:


"Dr. Harlan Giles, who performs second trimester abortions up to the point of viability, testified:


I do not think there are any maternal conditions that I'm aware of that mandate ending the pregnancy that, also, require that the fetus be dead or that the fetal life be terminated. In my experience for twenty years, one can deliver these fetuses either vaginally or by cesarean section for that matter depending on the choice of the parent...


And I cannot think of a fetal condition or malformation, no matter how severe, that actually causes harm or risk to the mother of continuing the pregnancy.


In most cases mothers carrying an abnormal fetus such as with Down's syndrome, anencephaly, the absence of a brain itself, dwarfism. Other severe even lethal chromosome abnormalities, those mothers if you follow their pregnancy have no higher risk of pregnancy complications than for any other mother who's progressing to term for a delivery." (Women's Medical Professional Corp. v. Voinovich, No.C-3-95-414, U. S. District Court, Southern District, Ohio (1995) ).www.usccb.org/prolife/issues/abortion/al... 



Aug 17, 2009 -- 10:49AM, newsjunkie wrote:


IMO, it requires an incredible lack of compassion to foist your own wishes on other people regardless of the heartache and misery it causes them."




Do you think it's compassionate to rip someone's legs and arms off because of their mother's choice?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."--John14:6

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.-- John 3:16

"We love Him because He first loved us."--1 John 4:9-10

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear ... "
1 John 4:18
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2009 - 4:15PM #77
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Aug 17, 2009 -- 3:57PM, faith713 wrote:


Do you think it's compassionate to rip someone's legs and arms off because of their mother's choice?




No, which is why no one does it simply on a whim. These late term abortions are done only to save the mothers life. That you and others are trying to politicize the pain and suffering of the woman and her family is even more repugnant. I have to go wash my monitor now.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2009 - 4:24PM #78
Tolerant Sis
Posts: 4,201

Faith,


I can't comment on your assertion that some neurologists believe that pain medication should be given to 11 week old fetuses, since you failed to provide the citation, but I can tell you that the vast majority of neurologists do not believe that the fetus is capable of perceiving pain before the third trimester, because the perception of pain requires functional thalamocortical connections, which the fetus does not have prior to the 29th or 30th week of gestation. 


jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/294/...

First amendment fan since 1793.
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2009 - 4:35PM #79
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,750

Aug 17, 2009 -- 3:57PM, faith713 wrote:


Aug 17, 2009 -- 10:49AM, newsjunkie wrote:


faith,


The vast majority of abortions are done before 12 weeks, and do not involve the methods discussed in your most recent post.  Abortions after viability are done only in cases of severe threat to the woman, or severe fetal abnormality. Prior to 24 weeks, the fetus is not likely to have the ability to feel pain (source).



Some information about your source:


"One author, Susan J. Lee, a medical student, is also a lawyer who for eight months from 1999 to 2000 worked in the legal department at NARAL, an abortion rights group. Another author, Dr. Eleanor A. Drey, performs abortions and is medical director of an abortion clinic."


www.albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=23...


Other sources state the fetus may feel pain after 11 weeks:


"In fact, there is a steadily increasing body of medical evidence and literature supporting the conclusion that a fetus may feel pain from around 11 to 13 weeks, or even as early as 5.5 weeks.3 Indeed, there is some evidence that fetal suffering may actually be more intense due to the uneven maturation of fetal neurophysiology.4 A British survey of neuroscientists showed that 80% of the neuroscientists participating in the survey felt that pain relief should be given to a fetus for abortions after 11 weeks gestation.5


You respond to a JAMA article with quotes from a PL website. Typical. Your standard of evidence and mine are totally different.


Aug 17, 2009 -- 10:49AM, newsjunkie wrote:

 I don't think it's "sick" to perform an abortion on a viable fetus in order to save the woman's life, or protect her health when her pregnancy has gone terribly wrong. However, if a woman choses to continue the pregnancy despite serious threats to her health, survival, or that of her fetus, I support her choice.



What about the millions of babies that are tortured and suffer agonizing deaths during an abortion? There is no reason for it:


"Dr. Harlan Giles, who performs second trimester abortions up to the point of viability, testified:


I do not think there are any maternal conditions that I'm aware of that mandate ending the pregnancy that, also, require that the fetus be dead or that the fetal life be terminated. In my experience for twenty years, one can deliver these fetuses either vaginally or by cesarean section for that matter depending on the choice of the parent...


And I cannot think of a fetal condition or malformation, no matter how severe, that actually causes harm or risk to the mother of continuing the pregnancy.


In most cases mothers carrying an abnormal fetus such as with Down's syndrome, anencephaly, the absence of a brain itself, dwarfism. Other severe even lethal chromosome abnormalities, those mothers if you follow their pregnancy have no higher risk of pregnancy complications than for any other mother who's progressing to term for a delivery." (Women's Medical Professional Corp. v. Voinovich, No.C-3-95-414, U. S. District Court, Southern District, Ohio (1995) ).www.usccb.org/prolife/issues/abortion/al... 



Aug 17, 2009 -- 10:49AM, newsjunkie wrote:


IMO, it requires an incredible lack of compassion to foist your own wishes on other people regardless of the heartache and misery it causes them."




Do you think it's compassionate to rip someone's legs and arms off because of their mother's choice?





I'm not going to respond to such a disingenuous and nasty remark. Obviously you're not interested in reading my views -- it's clear from that last childish remark and the material you lifted from the USCCB website that precedes it that you didn't bother to read or consider what I've already written. It is impossible to engage in rational discussion with a person who chooses to hear only what they want to hear and blocks out, or worse, mischaracterizes what people with a different opinion have to say.


Have a wonderful day. 

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 18, 2009 - 4:28AM #80
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754

Aug 17, 2009 -- 4:15PM, mountain_man wrote:


Aug 17, 2009 -- 3:57PM, faith713 wrote:


Do you think it's compassionate to rip someone's legs and arms off because of their mother's choice?




No, which is why no one does it simply on a whim. These late term abortions are done only to save the mothers life. That you and others are trying to politicize the pain and suffering of the woman and her family is even more repugnant. I have to go wash my monitor now.




MM, I hate to correct you, but that is not strictly true.  Very late term abortions are also done when the patient's health is in danger, when the patient was raped (especialy with very young women or girls, who often hide their assault and then their pregnancy out of fear of the perpetrator), or when the fetus is severely abnormal.


Faith, in cases like those abortion is the most compassionate option available.  It's definitely not the outcome anyone wanted, and no:  it's not nice.  It's not pleasant.  Dr. Hern describes it as acutely unpleasant, even to him.  The simple fact of the matter is that the good of the fetus is in conflict with the good of the woman, and the woman is capable of vastly more suffering than the fetus is.


 


p.s."A British survey of neuroscientists showed that 80% of the neuroscientists participating in the survey felt that pain relief should be given to a fetus for abortions after 11 weeks gestation.5"


Can be translated as "this survey was not scientifically conducted and the results are not generalizable to the community of neuroscientists, or even Brittish neuroscientists, as a whole."  It could have been an internet poll on the website of 'Brittish neuroscientists for life' for all we know, since you listed it simply as "other sources" without a link.

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