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Switch to Forum Live View Vasectomies, Tubal ligation and religion/faith/God (moral or wrong)
6 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2009 - 9:38PM #11
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

Bluehorse... Then Let me introduce you to .... ME...  I was informed when I made my FIRST appointment with my ob-gyn in Springfield, MO, that there would be NO sterilization procedure and if I wanted one, I would have to go elsewhere.


I was refused... flat out... hands down.  I also know that the hospital my husband works in will NOT do them.


So, no, not all Catholic hospitals respect the patient's right to choose.

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2009 - 11:25PM #12
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754

Jun 5, 2009 -- 9:38PM, Tmarie64 wrote:

So, no, not all Catholic hospitals respect the patient's right to choose.




I will not quibble with that statement.  However, please don't tar all Catholic hospitals with the same brush.  I am not Catholic, but I would choose my hospital in a heartbeat over any other in my area because it is simply a better hospital (this is borne out by both patient surveys run by a national company and by employee surveys, not just me) in terms of patient care.

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6 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2009 - 1:43AM #13
Habala?!
Posts: 1,224

May 19, 2009 -- 2:24PM, MysticWanderer wrote:


Speaking as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the Church permits all forms of birth control and sterilization.  The Church feels that family size should be determined by the parents in according with their ability provide for their children.  Of course we see children as a blessing from Heavenly Father but too many defeat the purpose of parenting which is to raise children properly not in poverty and deprivation.  That being said the Church opposes abortion as the killing of a human being and the deprivation of a mortal existence. 




Nonsense.

Read the following:

"The First Presidency (of the LDS Church) has declared, "We seriously deplore the fact that members of the Church would voluntarily take measures to render themselves incapable of further procreation.

Surgical sterilization should only be considered (1) where medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health, or (2) where birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the person or persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop (or branch president) and receive divine confirmation through prayer." (1989 Handbook of Instruction)


"Children are a heritage from the Lord, and those who refuse the responsibility of bringing them into the world and caring for them are usually prompted by selfish motives, and the result is that they suffer the penalty of selfishness throughout eternity. There is no excuse for members of our Church adopting the custom of the world. . . We have been better taught than they." (George Albert Smith, "Birth Control," Relief Society Magazine, Feb. 1917, p. 72)


"We seriously regret that there should exist a sentiment or feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children. We have been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth that we may have joy and rejoicing in our posterity. Where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity, it is contrary to the teachings of the Church artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children. We believe that those who practice birth control will reap disappointment by and by."
(First Presidency {David O. McKay, Hugh B. Brown, N. Eldon Tanner} Letter to presidents of stakes, bishops of wards, and presidents of missions, 14 April 1969)


 


I can go on if you like.


"When you walk, you might like to take the hand of a child. She will receive your concentration and stability, and you will receive her freshness and innocence." -Tich Naht Hanh
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2009 - 9:29AM #14
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

Jun 5, 2009 -- 11:25PM, bluehorserunning wrote:


Jun 5, 2009 -- 9:38PM, Tmarie64 wrote:

So, no, not all Catholic hospitals respect the patient's right to choose.




I will not quibble with that statement.  However, please don't tar all Catholic hospitals with the same brush.  I am not Catholic, but I would choose my hospital in a heartbeat over any other in my area because it is simply a better hospital (this is borne out by both patient surveys run by a national company and by employee surveys, not just me) in terms of patient care.




I'm not "tarring" anyone.  But don't YOU paint them all with duckies and bunnies.  They don't ALL respect the patient's right to choose sterilization.  Far too many still don't offer tubal ligation, or vasectomies for men.  Most of them don't.


I don't care if you're Catholic or not.  It doesn't impress me that a nonCatholic would choose a Catholic hospital.   Catholic hospitals tend to be the better hospitals in many area.  At holiday masses we tend to have as many, if not more, Protestants as Catholics.


I don't believe that a Catholic hospital performs sterilization procedures, unless the mother's life is in danger.  It is absolutely 1000000% against Catholic doctrine to do so.  I know there is not one that I know of that will.  

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2009 - 9:19PM #15
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754

I'm not "tarring" anyone.  But don't YOU paint them all with duckies and bunnies.



You wrote:


"...had you been in a Catholic hospital... you wouldn't have been granted permission to have a tubal."


That sounded like a pretty all-inclusive statement to me.  I responded that it was not accurate because at least one Catholic hospital (the one that I happen to work at) does have practitioners that do tubals on request.  That's not duckies and bunnies; that's just saying that some aren't as bad as you make them out to be.


Far too many still don't offer tubal ligation, or vasectomies for men.  Most of them don't.


Even one hospital, imnsho, that does not offer voluntary birth control is too many.  However, do you have any statistics to back up that "Most"?


I don't believe that a Catholic hospital performs sterilization procedures, unless the mother's life is in danger.


Sooooo... You are saying that I am lying?  I assure you that I am not, although there's not much I can do to prove what I have seen with my own eyes over the internet.


 

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6 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2009 - 10:31PM #16
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

I'm not "tarring" anyone.  But don't YOU paint them all with duckies and bunnies.



You wrote:


"...had you been in a Catholic hospital... you wouldn't have been granted permission to have a tubal."


No I did not.   


That sounded like a pretty all-inclusive statement to me.  I responded that it was not accurate because at least one Catholic hospital (the one that I happen to work at) does have practitioners that do tubals on request.  That's not duckies and bunnies; that's just saying that some aren't as bad as you make them out to be.


Far too many still don't offer tubal ligation, or vasectomies for men.  Most of them don't.


Even one hospital, imnsho, that does not offer voluntary birth control is too many.  However, do you have any statistics to back up that "Most"?


Catholic doctrine... You won't offer up any proof that you know of any that do actually do it.  


I don't believe that a Catholic hospital performs sterilization procedures, unless the mother's life is in danger.


Sooooo... You are saying that I am lying?  I assure you that I am not, although there's not much I can do to prove what I have seen with my own eyes over the internet.


I'm saying "I DON'T BELIEVE IT"... I have never heard of it except for one unnamed hospital.  You claim it... I don't have any proof of it.  I don't know you from Adam's lost dog... I DO, however, know Catholic doctrine on birth control and that directly contradicts what you say.  How you take my disbelief is up to you, and you alone. 


 


 

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2009 - 3:37PM #17
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754

I said that you wrote:


"...had you been in a Catholic hospital... you wouldn't have been granted permission to have a tubal."


You responded: "No I did not."   


My apologies; it was MarySara to whom I was initially responding.  However, your subsequent statements continue to be all-inclusively bashing of Catholic hospital bc practices to the extent of accusing me of lying about what I have seen.


You won't offer up any proof that you know of any that do actually do it.


What proof could I offer?  It certianly won't be prominently displayed on the hospital's web-site.  The extent to which our Ob-Gyns stretch the rules is the extent to which they, personally, disagree with Catholic doctrine.  Many of the employees at my hospital (myself included) are not Catholic, and many more are Catholic but (like most American Catholics) have no problem personally with bc and disagree strongly with the church on its official position.  Just because the pope says something - even something supposedly straight from 'God,' does not mean all Catholics start toeing his line.


I'm saying "I DON'T BELIEVE IT"... I have never heard of it except for one unnamed hospital.  You claim it... I don't have any proof of it.


In other words, you are accusing me of either lying or being deluded.  Thanks for the clarification. 


I don't know you from Adam's lost dog...


Now I'm lying, deluded, and a bitch.  Ok. 


Fyi, I have been posting on this forum for years - longer than you, I believe - though not consistently.  I have seen several iterations of BNet come and go, and have been a member since its first form.


I DO, however, know Catholic doctrine on birth control and that directly contradicts what you say.



Like I said, Catholic DOCTRINE about what should be done and the individual mores of Catholic HCPs and non-Catholic HCPs working in Catholic hospitals are not necessarily congruent.   


 

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6 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2009 - 8:46PM #18
johnnyjoe
Posts: 2,221

Bluehorse...


I would advise you take any statement on Catholic Doctrine from Tmarie with a grain.... make that a pound, of salt.


Tmarie has great disagreements with a great number of Catholic Doctrine, particularly in the area of sexual morality.  As you can tell, even arguing about what an individual "Catholic" hospital does or does not do is really a waste of time, since Tmarie has never been wrong....


 


Now - to address the original post:


What do Mormons, Muslims, Catholics, Conservative Protestant Christians, Bahia`s and etc, think about vasectomies and tubal ligation. In your opinion and your religious background...it is more moral than getting an abortion? Is it "playing God?" Is it more moral than other birth control methods or the same? Howdoes your holy book, God or religious faith determine what you think is the morality of this decision? Is it more or less moral if the couple already has kids or doesn't have kids? What about it a single adult makes this decision for him or herself? Is this something your faith teaches if you do you will burn in hell for doing? 


It is kind of a ramble of questions, but if there is a desire to really know about the Catholic position - from a faithful Catholic - then I shall try and oblige.


I am the lesser half of an NFP teaching couple, and weused contraception for the first 13 of the 25 years of our marriage.  My wife converted to the Church, and we came to believe the Church's teaching about contraception not by any RCIA program, but from our own research and personal experience.


The Church teaches that the "marital act" - and sexual intercourse is only for Sacramental Marriage - has two dimensions, one to bond the unity of the couple - emotionally and spiritually (as well as physically), and the other to facilitate the begetting of children.  The Church teaches calls these two aspects the "unitive" and "procreative" aspects of the marital embrace.


The Church teaches that ANY artificial barrier, chemical, or surgury that separates these two aspects of the marital act SIGNIFICANTLY CHANGES the meaning and effect of the act within the sacrament - whether the couple "feels it" or not.


An important aspect to remember in this area is that the Church views contraception as a process whereby the couples "use" each other for sexual gratification - literally disinviting the Holy Spirit from being present to the marital embrace.  This is seen from the most important perspective of the Church that is often overlooked - that the couple does not "make" a baby, they only receive children as a GIFT from the Holy Spirit.  Couples provide the means - they cooperate with creation - "pro-creation" - but the cannot provide the spark of life! THAT is the Holy Spirit's role, and His alone. 


From the Nicene Creed we hear:


".....and we Believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life."


That is why contraception is, in it's essence, an anti-child practice.  It leads people to believe THEY are in charge of when they "have" a baby, when in fact, they can - at most - await the Gift of Life.


As to the link to abortion - the Church rightly observes that couples who view their fertility as some kind of materialistic feature of there biology, then they will also view the Gift of a Child in the same way.  Thus "unwanted" children can be disposed of - sucked out of the way because couples do not have the imagination to see this new life as a GIFT - FULL of potential and hope, regardless of the circumstances God chose to allow this LIFE to come into being.....


As to the "burn in hell" thing......


Thank GOD I have not been given the vision to see who goes to Hell and who does not - I only know I don't have to go there......

"If Samson could slay 1000 Philistines with only the jawbone of an ass,
think what God could do with a complete ass."
St. John Vianney
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2009 - 9:21PM #19
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

JJ... So you are saying that it is NOT against Catholic doctrine to use birth control?  Vasectomies?   If you are then you are a liar.  It is DIRECTLY against ALL "anti birth control" doctrines taught.


I was married in the Church.  My husband's uncle has been a priest for 50 years.  My husband's aunt has been a nun for more than 40 years.  You're going to tell me that the priest who married us, our uncle, AND our aunt are all wrong?


I would have thought an uber catholic would know the church's anti-birth control attitude...


 

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2009 - 11:40AM #20
karbie
Posts: 3,329

I thank God for my son every day. When he first asked me where he came from when he was around 3, I told him he was a gift from God. Literally. So please do not assume that non-Catholics are not aware of the concept and don't view their children that way.


One of my dear friends daughter was very  premature--in fact, considering that this was 23 years ago, her survival was a miracle. Born 7/8--due date 10/30/86. Despite the scarring on her eyes from the oxygen, her nerves made different pathways and she doesn't even need glasses. They had to wait until she was older before the ventilator scars on her throat could be removed with plastic surgery, and she was certainly bombarded with negative images because of them. One teacher even asked her--in front of a class, mind you--if her mother had cut her neck! She used to wait with me in our car until her mother  came over from picking her brother up at another school. She was really dejected one day--not her usual state-and I asked her what was bothering her. One of the boys in her class was continually asking her what was wrong with her neck even though she'd told him several times and she wanted to know how to stop him. Among other things, I told her that if he-or any other kids--started asking her what happened repeatedly, I told her to charge for the information. First time is free, second costs a quarter, third costs a $1, etc.


She started to perk up with that idea. Then I told her that those scars on her neck were a sign that she had been a fighter from the day she was born. That her survival was a miracle and to remember that when she was being picked on. I didn't think anything about it until her mother called me to see what what I had said to her. Apparently a few days later she asked her mother if she was a miracle. (She agreed; she just got caught off guard.) Those visible scars are gone now--I just didn't want her to think "I'm ugly, I'm scarred" every time she saw a mirror or heard a rude comment. I thought  "It's a miracle I survived, I'm a living miracle" was a much better self image.


Her older brother was one month early.  I mentioned how premature she was--apparently some paper was stuck in with all the other permission papers that would have allowed the doctor a free hand in cutting her open to see what was causing her to have premature children. Her husband came up behind that doctor as he was describing what he was going to do and what a great article it was going to be in furthering medical knowledge about the whole process from her autopsy! the *?/! had included permission  for her own autopsy and her daughter's in with everything she was signing to SAVE the baby!


 Long story short, which made me like her husband before I ever met him--he picked up the doctor, held him upside down by the nurses' station. and told the doctor that he understood if they couldn't save the baby--but if his wife died, the doctor would die. (She heard about this from several nurses--it actually got her more attentive care because the nurses weren't fond of that doctor.) It wasn't as if they could have sued him when their daughter's life depended on her staying in their neo-natal unit.


Where does this fit in? After almost dying and then having a year without daring to sleep more than 90 minutes at a time in case an alarm went off on the monitors, she finally told her husband that the only way she would feel safe to resume the physical side of marriage was if he had a vasectomy. After almost dying and all that tiny little girl endured, she didn't want to push her luck another time.


I disagree that sex without the chance of procreation severs the act from God. It IS and can be more than just the biological urge to reproduce that can make sex a sacrament between two people; it is comfort in times of sorrow, an affirmation of the love that brought you together and joined you together. It's the icing on the cake but not the whole cake as you get older and hopefully your relationship deepens and matures just as you do individually and together.


My first pregnancy ended in a miscariage, although I'd set up an appointment at an abortion clinic because my doctor confirmed that I was pregnant and had absolutely no chance of going full term. For my own sanity I'm grateful that I miscarried on my own, but I still ended up at the clinic for the after-care because we had next to no medical insurance.  During all that turmoil, I DID thank God that I could get a legal abortion. I'd been told that the longer the pregnancy went, the more chance of doing serious internal damage that would prevent me from ever getting pregnant again, much less bringing one to term.


 He's been our joy and in a few months he'll be married to a lovely girl we already adore and her parents love our son. I'm happy for all of us.


 I consider things like these operations,and birth control pills as something that has been provided by the Almighty so that we properly care for the lives sent to us instead of just breeding like animals.

"You are letting your opinion be colored by facts again."
'When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you."
these are both from my father.
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