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Switch to Forum Live View Vasectomies, Tubal ligation and religion/faith/God (moral or wrong)
5 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2009 - 11:20PM #41
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754

Jun 25, 2009 -- 10:23AM, johnnyjoe wrote:

It shows that you believe the "proof" of the effectiveness of NFP is how few children we have.  If I tell you we have only two, you would think us prudent and well-disciplined.  If I tell you 6, you would presume that NFP didn't work, and that we are foolish to use it.



Ok, I will rephrase.  How many unplanned pregnancies have you had while on NFP?


In all cases, the children are not viewed as unique Gifts from God, made in His Image and Likeness, and inestimable in value.  They are instead seen as a burden, a possession, and a sign of our ignorance if we want more than whatever the politically correct number should be.  At it's heart, the love of contraception - and it's fruit, abortion - is a selfish anti-child attitude that disassociates sexual intercourse from the begetting of children.  


That's because children are, in fact, burdens as well as blessings.  Have you never heard of the gift of a white elephant?  A white elephant is sacred and precious, and the gift of one is a demonstration of high esteem - but caring for it can ruin the recipient and keep them from being able to adequately care for the rest of their family.  It is not selfish to acknowledge the fact that one more child (or a dozen more, if one really leaves things 'in God's hands') seriously compromises the ability of most families to adequately clothe and educate the children that they already have.


It is also because sex in humans has a hugely important function (pair bonding) that has nothing to do with conceiving children.


You think you are making some kind of feminist point here - the because a woman most desires sexual union during her most fertile time, and since NFP keeps a woman from having sex at that time - it's somehow anti-woman.


That is such a laughable piece of logic that I just have to walk over it a bit....


Why is it illogical to say that a bc method that denies women satisfaction but asks little of men is less than equitable?


It is scientifically verifiable that one of the primary side effects of the Birth Control Pill is libido suppression.


Yes, I know.  The pill also makes one gain weight and puts one at slightly higher risk of dangerous clots.  That's why I'm glad that there are bc methods other than the birth control pill.


...the BCP, a drug invented by a man...


...who was funded by a woman, in an era during which it was extremely difficult for women to break into the sciences, and virtually impossible for them to get funding once they got there...


Now that makes sense to you?  This is "healthy"?


Many women use the pill because the trade-offs are worth it to them.  It's not my chosen method, but it's not my business to tell other women where their balance of trade-offs should be.  Likewise, I wouldn't be challenging you on NFP if you weren't misrepresenting it and attacking everyone who uses other methods.


NFP is only information gathering.  Whether a couple decides to have sexual relations or not is completely a separate process.


It forces the woman to decide between enjoying sex and preventing conception.


I suppose if you view sex as some kind of instinctual urge that must be satisfied - as some kind of animal instinct - then perhaps you are really upset about being subject to a natural instinct you think unfair.


I do think that sex is a natural instinct, but it's not that it 'must' be satisfied; it's that we are happier organisms if we acknowledge our drives so that we can satisfy them in a healthy manner.  Why do you think it's always sanctimonious right-wing politicians who get caught with their pants around their ankles?  The ones who deny that they have drives are the ones who have the hardest time controling themselves when a strong temptation arises.


The sex drive is far more 'fair' than it used to be, thanks entirely to modern methods of birth control; it will hopefully be more fair yet in the future, as more methods are developed and made available for use.


That is to say you would see the desire to have sex the most during the fertile time as somehow "unfair" for women.  


Not at all.  Couples have plenty of options for birth control - especially including vasectomies and/or tubal ligations - that allow both the man and the woman to enjoy sex at its optimum.  That is perfectly fair.


If that is so, then your issue is not with men, it is with God, for that is how he designed female fertility.


Leaving untouched the preachiness, 'God' also designed our knees and backs to give out in our 40's, heart attacks, strokes, early death for men, and a host of other 'natural' conditions that most people have no problem whatsoever altering and making 'more fair' through the miracle of modern science-based medicine.  It is only when health care starts touching women's fertility that the religious right suddenly starts crying about how birth control is 'unnatural' and 'against god's plan.'


Sex is for BOTH the man and the woman in the relationship.


It certianly should be.


Your argument that it is for only the man pits the husband against the wife, the woman against the man, in a battle for the most autonomous "use" of their sexual powers.


I wasn't arguing that that is how it should be; I was arging that that is what NFP makes it into.


It is evident that you, by setting up this dichotomy, view sexuality as something you "get satisfied".  A completion of your own needs.  That is the fruit of the "was it good for you" mentality toward "sexual expression".  You only ask that question if you are having sex to suit yourself.


A man who claims that female satisfaction is irrelevant and/or selfish can only ever be a terrible lover.  Sorry, but making love is, in fact, partly about physical satisfaction for both parties.  That's the way it is.  That's the way 'god' designed it to be, if you insist on that language.


In fact, the marital embrace is intended by God to be a mutual gift of self.  An outpouring of the tenderness of intimacy and union that "...makes the two flesh one", and the two hearts as one.  


again leaving alone the preachy god talk, of course sex is about pair bonding - and isn't wanting to please one's partner a huge part of that for BOTH parties, not just the woman?


Hearts side by side, and conjoined in a manner of intimacy that I can only hope is a foreshadow of standing in the presence of Jesus Christ Himself.


Oh, I really didn't want to know that...


What you lack is imagination and a romantic heart.  


What you lack is a firm grounding in reality.  You can preach to your litter of kiddies about pie and education in the sky all you want, but I want to feed and educate mine here and now, before they die.

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2009 - 9:55AM #42
karbie
Posts: 3,329

Here's a very simple thought--if God meant us to only have sex to propagate and not as a form of sharing and deepening the bond between two people, why are there more days when women are infertile than days when we are fertile? Why do humans not only desire sex when the female is in heat like many other species do?


And you have it exactly backwards--abortion is not the fruit of birth control, because birth control was used to prevent an abortion being needed, not the other way around.And while many women experience a loss of libido on BC pills, it isn't an automatic reaction for everyone who takes them.


For women who are prescribed BX pills to regulate cycles that are out of control, they are a blessing. the last time I went on them was to stop having a cycle of 13-16 day periods,with cramps the entire month and surpassing back labor during the period itself. So I felt a LOT better and the side effects were better than what they had replaced. I had 3 choices--hysterectomy, BC pills, or straight hormones. The effects and side effects of the hormones would have been the same, so my gynecologist thought that the BC pills would benefit me most and I agreed. So please consider that not every woman or teenage girl they are prescribed for had only preventing pregnancy--sometimes it's just for the hormones and given to virgins.

"You are letting your opinion be colored by facts again."
'When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you."
these are both from my father.
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2009 - 4:55PM #43
Mindy1
Posts: 15

In response to the question I am a Christian and have been for my entire life. I personally do not believe in abortion, I think is akin to murder. I don't think that birth control is a sin, I have a IUD and before that I was on birth control pills. As far as my children go when the time comes I will teach them that they should wait until marriage as the bible says you should. I also know that is not realistic and probably will not happen. So I will keep communication open and provide birth control to both of my children. Part of our job as parents is to protect our children, I personally believe that keeping the from getting STDs, and protecting their future is part of that. I think that the key is prevention, the church should continue to teach our children that the right thing to do is wait until marriage. And the schools should at least teach our children the risks of having multiple sex partners along with birth control options and safe sex.

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2009 - 5:01PM #44
Mindy1
Posts: 15

Jul 2, 2009 -- 9:55AM, karbie wrote:


Here's a very simple thought--if God meant us to only have sex to propagate and not as a form of sharing and deepening the bond between two people, why are there more days when women are infertile than days when we are fertile? Why do humans not only desire sex when the female is in heat like many other species do?


And you have it exactly backwards--abortion is not the fruit of birth control, because birth control was used to prevent an abortion being needed, not the other way around.And while many women experience a loss of libido on BC pills, it isn't an automatic reaction for everyone who takes them.


For women who are prescribed BX pills to regulate cycles that are out of control, they are a blessing. the last time I went on them was to stop having a cycle of 13-16 day periods,with cramps the entire month and surpassing back labor during the period itself. So I felt a LOT better and the side effects were better than what they had replaced. I had 3 choices--hysterectomy, BC pills, or straight hormones. The effects and side effects of the hormones would have been the same, so my gynecologist thought that the BC pills would benefit me most and I agreed. So please consider that not every woman or teenage girl they are prescribed for had only preventing pregnancy--sometimes it's just for the hormones and given to virgins.





I would also like to say here that I think God meant for us to have sex for a variety of reasons, not only procreation. I have heard the if the Song of Solomon were translated in to modern days language it would be too explicit to broadcast on the radio, it's surprisingly erotic.

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 09, 2009 - 1:03AM #45
itsacrucifiction
Posts: 2,687

May 18, 2009 -- 5:47PM, Godgirl wrote:

What do Mormons, Muslims, Catholics, Conservative Protestant Christians, Bahia`s and etc, think about vasectomies and tubal ligation. In your opinion and your religious background...it is more moral than getting an abortion?



For atheists, one may or may not have vasectomies, tubal ligations or abortions, depending on one's own preferences, with no thought whatsoever given to the opinions of Zeus, the Big Bad Wolf or Santa on such issues.


 


May 18, 2009 -- 5:47PM, Godgirl wrote:

Is it "playing God?"



Isn't removing an appendix or gall stones also 'playing God?" Some may feel a need for the approval of invisible friends for such surgeries. Atheists, however, do not.


 


May 18, 2009 -- 5:47PM, Godgirl wrote:

Is it more moral than other birth control methods or the same? Howdoes your holy book, God or religious faith determine what you think is the morality of this decision?



Such decisions are determined by what one wants or needs. Vasectomies or tubal ligations are not called for by those who want to reproduce. Abortions are not called for by those who wish to give birth. You may as well have asked how does one determine the morality of purchasing a Honda instead of a Chrysler.


 


May 18, 2009 -- 5:47PM, Godgirl wrote:

Is it more or less moral if the couple already has kids or doesn't have kids? What about it a single adult makes this decision for him or herself?



How does one determine what one might have for breakfast in the morning? Reproductive decisions are no different.


 


May 18, 2009 -- 5:47PM, Godgirl wrote:

Is this something your faith teaches if you do you will burn in hell for doing?



One would most certainly hope not, particularly given there are many who believed flying planes into buildings guaranteed 72 virgins in an afterlife (without explaining at all why one would want one virgin, much less 72. Personally, I would far rather have 72 who actually KNOW what they are doing, assuming an afterlife actually existed, but that's just me.)

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2011 - 10:50PM #46
Kristin80
Posts: 5

May 19, 2009 -- 5:16PM, mountain_man wrote:

May 19, 2009 -- 2:24PM, MysticWanderer wrote:


...That being said the Church opposes abortion as the killing of a human being and the deprivation of a mortal existence. 




All very nice. They have a right to believe that and a right to preach it in their churches. What they, and other christian sects, do not have is the right to force their religious beliefs on others.


About me: I am a Christian, I came to this site doing research for a Biology assignment, I signed up here to ask you a question.  Before I ask it, understand that as a Christian, I believe that each and everyone of us have the right to make our own choices, which I assume you would agree with.


My question to you (and I am asking out of curiosity, not judgement) is:


From your perspective, where does "religion" stop and morality/values begin? 


I hope that it is not assuming too much for me to say that my Pro-Life view and your Pro-Choice view is primarily a difference in opinion defining when life starts. 


But my question to you is not limited to the abortion debate.  Thou salt not kill, is a biblical statement, and also a law...do you consider that religious sects forcing their beliefs on others?  What are the basic rights every human is entitled to if you take religion out of the picture?


Sorry, just thought of another question...Do you consider abortion a feminine right or a parental one?

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2011 - 11:05PM #47
Kristin80
Posts: 5

This is seen from the most important perspective of the Church that is  often overlooked - that the couple does not "make" a baby, they only  receive children as a GIFT from the Holy Spirit.  Couples provide the  means - they cooperate with creation - "pro-creation" - but the cannot  provide the spark of life! THAT is the Holy Spirit's role, and His  alone.


 


So how does this play in with all of the genetic controversy and cloning issues....


When a doctor creates zygotes in a lab for use in invetro, is the Holy Spirit providing that spark too?


What about the cloned sheep, what was her name? Dolly? If the Holy Spirit provides this "spark" you are referring to, does that mean that He approves of these practices?

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2011 - 12:53PM #48
watcher59
Posts: 1,606

May 19, 2009 -- 2:24PM, MysticWanderer wrote:


Speaking as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the Church permits all forms of birth control and sterilization.  The Church feels that family size should be determined by the parents in according with their ability provide for their children. 




This is the most pragmatic position any organization could hold. IMO

How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!
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