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Switch to Forum Live View Bottom line: It's woman's body
6 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2009 - 1:08PM #11
Vanillaangel
Posts: 334

RiverMoonlady wrote:

VanillaAngel - "The most zealous PLer, insisting women that are raped, fertile young women that are molested and become pregnant, are still to be forbidden the right to choose to abort the seed of their rapist."

Sadly, there are extremists among this group who believe that any girl who gets pregnant due to rape or incest MUST give birth, no matter how small and/or underdeveloped her body is and no matter how risky it would be for her to continue a pregnancy to completion. I was discussing this on another website and brought up the fact that the average 10-year-old girl (who is in about 4th grade) is 4'-3" tall and weighs about 70 lbs.

I believe that most, if not all, OB/GYNS would say that it is very dangerous for a girl that young and small to carry a pregnancy, but the extreme PL'ers insist that the health and life of the girl DO NOT MATTER, only the life of the "innocent" fetus. How depressing and sad it is to me that the INNOCENT young girl apparently has no worth compared to the fetus. I can only wonder what would happen if that pregnant 10-year-old would be their DAUGHTER.


Worst case scenario, she'd suffer and die being forced to carry her rapists seed to term. Best case scenario, the extremist would be a hypocrite and let her abort to save the life they value so much.

Most disgusting of all is, for those that would insist she carry no matter what, is it's as if they reason it away by saying, there will be another life to take her place once the babies born. And many PL'ers blame the girl for the rape, it must be noted as well.
There's an Imam on You Tube who speaks to womens attire. He says that if the U.S. adopted Sharia law and the Hijab was mandated, less rape would occur. He even gives a hypothetical of twin sisters walking in a city. One sister is wearing a miniskirt the other the Hijab. A 'ruffian' sees the girls. Who do you think he's going to abuse? The Imam asks.

Gods law.

It inspires such inhumanity.
I wonder, if there was a god, how that would set with that higher consciousness.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2009 - 3:12PM #12
faith713
Posts: 3,892

Vanillaangel wrote:

You're entitled to your opinion.
However, by medical standards, the parasite reference is valid. The human zygote, embryo, fetus, feti, are/is a parasite with human cells. One would think a biologist would know that.


The parasite reference is incorrect.

The correct scientific definition of symbiosis is:

The relation between two different species of organisms that are interdependent.
http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Symbiosis

For the PCers to state otherwise is either being dishonest or ignorant.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."--John14:6

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.-- John 3:16

"We love Him because He first loved us."--1 John 4:9-10

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear ... "
1 John 4:18
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2009 - 5:36PM #13
Vanillaangel
Posts: 334

faith713 wrote:

The parasite reference is incorrect.

The correct scientific definition of symbiosis is:

The relation between two different species of organisms that are interdependent.
http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Symbiosis

For the PCers to state otherwise is either being dishonest or ignorant.


Well it's certainly not in evidence the PL crowd has ever been dishonest or ignorant.

Symbiosis:
Biology. 1. a) the living together of two dissimilar organisms, as in mutualism, commensalism, amensalism, or parasitism.


Dissimilar:
adjective
not similar; unlike; different.



symbiosis (Biology Online Dictionary)

Anton de Bary's original definition says: a long relationship between two different species. To this can be added, mutualism, (benefit for both), commensalism (benefit for one neutral for the other) and parasitism (benefit for one, costly for the other).
[LIST]
[*]The relation between two different species of organisms that are interdependent; each gains benefits from the other. A relationship between different species where both of the organisms in question benefit from the presence of the other. An example is the hermit crab who's shell offers a niche for anemones to exist in which can defend the crab with its stinging capabilies.[/LIST]
Notice, no reference to human cluster of cells (zygote), embryo or fetus!? Because there is a relation between similar species, in a pregnancy, that are not mutually dependent upon each other.  The parasite is dependent on the host exclusively. The host is not dependent upon the parasite.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2009 - 6:48PM #14
faith713
Posts: 3,892

Vanillaangel wrote:

Well it's certainly not in evidence the PL crowd has ever been dishonest or ignorant.

symbiosis (Biology Online Dictionary)

Anton de Bary's original definition says: a long relationship between two different species. To this can be added, mutualism, (benefit for both), commensalism (benefit for one neutral for the other) and parasitism (benefit for one, costly for the other).
[LIST]
[*]The relation between two different species of organisms that are interdependent; each gains benefits from the other. A relationship between different species where both of the organisms in question benefit from the presence of the other. An example is the hermit crab who's shell offers a niche for anemones to exist in which can defend the crab with its stinging capabilies.[/LIST]
Notice, no reference to human cluster of cells (zygote), embryo or fetus!? Because there is a relation between similar species, in a pregnancy, that are not mutually dependent upon each other.  The parasite is dependent on the host exclusively. The host is not dependent upon the parasite.


Please stop trying to use science to back up your parasite theory. Science clearly defines a parasite as a different species--there is no way around it. Some PCers need to use cheap dehumanization tactics to bolster their otherwise weak argument. Pathetic.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."--John14:6

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.-- John 3:16

"We love Him because He first loved us."--1 John 4:9-10

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear ... "
1 John 4:18
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2009 - 6:58PM #15
PaulaEdwina
Posts: 1,720
Hi, I'm a bio teacher. IMO it is not symbiosis because the relationship is not mutually beneficial. Whereas the fetus would die without the support of the gestating female, the gestating female receives no benefit from the existence of the fetus.  The relationship is not mutually beneficial. It is not symbiosis.

Might be considered commensalism - the fetus does not harm the gestating female by virtue of its existence, and does not benefit the gestating female, but the fetus is benefitted by the gestating female.

Paula
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2009 - 7:26PM #16
mountain_man
Posts: 40,244

Vanillaangel wrote:

You're entitled to your opinion. ..


What I gave was not an opinion but a scientific definition.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2009 - 7:29PM #17
mountain_man
Posts: 40,244

faith713 wrote:

The parasite reference is incorrect.

The correct scientific definition of symbiosis is:...


A parasitic relationship is not a symbiotic one.

For the PCers to state otherwise is either being dishonest or ignorant.


So was your attempt to conflate a symbiotic relationship with a parasitic one.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2009 - 11:32PM #18
Vanillaangel
Posts: 334

faith713 wrote:

Please stop trying to use science to back up your parasite theory. Science clearly defines a parasite as a different species--there is no way around it. Some PCers need to use cheap dehumanization tactics to bolster their otherwise weak argument. Pathetic.


Weak argument?!  I realize a woman telling another woman, whom she seeks to rob of her and all women, of their rights under the Constitution, would feel that way. Fortunately, words never have an effect when the agenda, action and intent, is what's being fought against, in the name of American freedom.


If PLers were concerned with life, they wouldn't assault and murder those who are fetus that have been born and matured to adulthood. So as to further the agenda that life is sacred and that's why the most violent zealous members of the PC faction kill life, to prove it.

So the issue then becomes timing. In Utero is wrong, according to the zealous PL movement. Post-utero is pardonable, so as to save life. The hypocrisy often results in a life sentence for that PL activist that pulled the trigger. Or 20 to life, for that PLer that plants explosives in abortion clinics so as to take lives to prove life is sacred.

And no, science does not define Parasite as a different species. The definition is succinct. A zygote/embryo/fetus is indeed a different organism, but it is not a different species to it's host.

Allow me to repeat from the medical dictionary so that you perhaps might understand that your amendment (different species) does not apply to the true definition of the word.

Parasite ~ An organism that lives in or on and takes its nourishment from another organism. A parasite cannot live independently.

.

The "right to life" requires a capacity to effect an independent survival. A zygote, embryo, fetus (parasite) can not do this. A zygote/embryo/fetus has potential of becoming a legal human being. Citizenship in the U.S., by law and language, refers to those born or naturalized into the United States.
There are no rights or protections afforded in any country, for fetus, in International Human Rights Codes. Not even the Constitution of our northern neighbor grants citizen rights to the unborn. For obvious reasons. Miscarriage, spontaneous abortion, would result in persecution and prosecution of the female.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2009 - 11:38PM #19
mountain_man
Posts: 40,244

Vanillaangel wrote:

...And no, science does not define Parasite as a different species. ...


any biologist will tell you it does. The product of conception, while still inside the female, is not considered a parasite.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2009 - 11:48PM #20
Vanillaangel
Posts: 334

mountain_man wrote:

any biologist will tell you it does. The product of conception, while still inside the female, is not considered a parasite.


That's fascinating, because , as I've posted more than once, the biological dictionaries say differently. :)

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