And the reality for many humans is they have no choices but to kill and eat animals, the reality for some of us in the developed world however is we can choose more ethical ways of living, for some this is to hunt their own dead animals, for others to give up meat altogether, for others to go vegan -- the same choices exsist if we dislike how humans are treated we can choose to live more ethically -- i for example avoid coca-cola where possible because they kill unuion leaders in colombia amongst other places, nike have had similar issues, MacDonalds terrorise their human workers (outside of the US and europe) and treat their animals appallingly.

We can make choices -- that is reality, you might choose not to make any ethical choices, i do not know you as you have obviously been absent for a while so it woudl require chatting with you sensibly again to establish your beleifes now as opposed to your beleifs before.

I do choose to live ethically, how i choose to do that in regards to animals and ecology is to eat vegan & campaign where appropriate, not to mention take in rescue animals where possible, how i choose to do that in regards human treatment is to campaign and boycott where possible and seek an career in aiding people in their lives, right now am seeking an education to do that in a more efficient manner. That is dealing with reality.

[QUOTE]Now, I have seen a lot of arguments posted about how humans aren't omnivores, and all the pseudo scientific justifications for this idea, but really, all that means absolutely nothing.  Ya know why? 

People do eat meat.  They have for a long time.  Nature and reality are cold and harsh, they don't care about you, me, the stray cat on the corner, or the cow that was the steak on my plate. [/QUOTE]

actually nature is neutral, she neither cares nor doesn't care ~ at least in the ways you mean, her heartbeat is so gigantic and slow we can have no comprehention of her wealth of time, space and knowledge and wisdom ~ she operates too harmonic balance - the way humans operate in the main is outside of that function.

We can choose to care, we can choose to care about animals, people and ecology.

You can go on and on about how horrible people are, and how unfair it all is, but this is how it is people.  Deal with it.

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Last week the US saw what is being called an historic day in its human history ~ now whether it works out as well as hoped is another matter and another discussion but no-one can deny that Obama being elected president as a part black man was stunning.

If folks had just sat back and dealt with inequality then the working & middle class man would have no vote and no right to stand as president/premier, black folks would still be slaves, women would have no vote, america would be a european colony, england would still have a giant empire and so on.

Standing up and raising concerns, standing up and saying this is wrong - that attitude has brought us some of the greatest acheivments in human social history -- in recent years across europe animal welfare legislation has made front page news, it has created high profile support, the treatmenrt of fur cats and dogs in china was debated at the UN and EU and legislations and controls put in place as a direct result of public preasure led jointly by animal rightists and welfareists create change, positive change in our treatment of animals.

Deal with it? You bet we are dealing with it; what you see on this board is a tiny, tiny representation of a larger movement, much larger if one included animal welfare as well - a movement that has its begginings in the ancient civilisations, some of the greatest thinkers of our history have support one or the other of animal welfare or animal rights.

Disagree please it is your right and privilege but for gods sake do it with some knowledge and dignity.

becca97 wrote:

ahh i see so unable to construct a decent argument in support of your position (and they are out there btw) you resort to rhetoric, ad hominem and hyperbole - glee.

I have little desire in discussing some of the justifications and what not on either side.  I have seen the arguments for anatomical adaptations used by both sides, and I know that neither side is going to listen to the other. 

becca97 wrote:

And the reality for many humans is they have no choices but to kill and eat animals, the reality for some of us in the developed world however is we can choose more ethical ways of living, for some this is to hunt their own dead animals, for others to give up meat altogether, for others to go vegan -- the same choices exsist if we dislike how humans are treated we can choose to live more ethically -- i for example avoid coca-cola where possible because they kill unuion leaders in colombia amongst other places, nike have had similar issues, MacDonalds terrorise their human workers (outside of the US and europe) and treat their animals appallingly.

Here is something I think would be interesting to talk about.  The ethics involved.  Regardless what anyone says to or about me, I eat meat.  Whether this is something that is an adaptation for me, or whether I have just convinced myself that it is is really inconsequential.  I will continue to eat meat.  I don't drink soda, (CO2 messes with my aerobic potential) and don't wear nikes (they wear out to fast on me) and don't eat McDonalds (food that doesn't decay scares me)  It really doesn't have to do with ethics.  Which I am willing to bet I have different ideas of "ethical" than most here anyway. 

becca97 wrote:

We can make choices -- that is reality, you might choose not to make any ethical choices, i do not know you as you have obviously been absent for a while so it woudl require chatting with you sensibly again to establish your beleifes now as opposed to your beleifs before.

Well, I don't know if you would consider my choices to be ethical or not.  I consider them ethical.

becca97 wrote:

actually nature is neutral, she neither cares nor doesn't care ~ at least in the ways you mean, her heartbeat is so gigantic and slow we can have no comprehention of her wealth of time, space and knowledge and wisdom ~ she operates too harmonic balance - the way humans operate in the main is outside of that function.

Alright, ya caught me.  Nature only seems cold and harsh if you expect it to be, think it should be warm and fluffy. 

becca97 wrote:

We can choose to care, we can choose to care about animals, people and ecology.

There is caring, and then there are people who are unrealistic. 


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SkyWalker53 wrote:

Are you opposed to the rape and murder of children? Are you opposed to war? If you are...how do you deal with it?

Rape and murder yes.  Having never been raped, nor raped another, I don't see how it is something that I need to deal with. 

War is necessary, sometimes. 

SkyWalker53 wrote:

Prove it please. Myself and my boyfriend have been vegan for over 10 years. Just what ingredient do you think you need from meat?

Prove it?  I don't need to prove it.  You'll prove it to yourself.  I doubt you will admit it to anyone either here or in real life.  Maybe a Dr, but that is about it. 

As far as "ingredient" I don't think there is one.  I think it is a concentration of several macro and micro nutrients that many people need that you just can't get from other than highly processed plant sources.  And I don't do processed. 

SkyWalker53 wrote:

Sure you are. You are choosing to pay someone to slice some one's throat. I am choosing NOT to pay someone to slice some one's throat.

Hm, I haven't hired a hit man that I'm aware of.  I prefer to do my own wet work. 

SkyWalker53 wrote:

OH. So you want the abolitionists to just let slavery continue? To say nothing. To do nothing to defend those who are subject to needless human cruelty? Coward.

Oh, play the Hitler card next.  No discussion is complete without the Hitler card. 

SkyWalker53 wrote:

Gandhi was a vegan. Gandhi was able to figure out 2 + 2 = 4. You know... basic reasoning. That's how Gandhi knew that by being vegan, he was changing the world for the better.

:rolleyes:

SkyWalker53 wrote:

NO. The world is what you make it. This is why I made sure you knew you have a choice. No one forces you to buy meat.  And you are choosing to pay some one to slice open some one's throat.

Yummy!

SkyWalker53 wrote:

BTW, when I was much younger, I went through the stage you are in now. Of noticing the violence in this world and thinking that my life was useless and meaningless...just a feather on the wind carried by the tides of violence and brutality. Unable to change any of it. Nature is brutal and violent, blah, blah, blah. The musings of a child. The most important thing you can do in this life is to recognize that you are a creator, not a feather on the wind. The world truly is what we make of it. If this were not true, we would still have slavery. Yet you see the world around you becoming less tolerant of cruelty. Who do you think is responsible for these changes?

You assume a lot about my state of mind.  Who said I wished to change anything?  I have embraced the violent and brutal aspects of my nature.  They are there for a reason.  You have to, regardless of what you think.  You may think you have denied them, but you have simply channeled them. 

SkyWalker53 wrote:

Oh but you do. Explain why you choose violence versus benevolence.

Because I am violent. 

"It is better to do violence, if violence is in your heart, than to do non-violence out of impotence." 

--Gandhi

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