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Switch to Forum Live View Vegans unable to deal with reality
5 years ago  ::  Nov 24, 2008 - 11:28AM #121
WildWolfEyes
Posts: 94
[QUOTE=becca97;916859]And where do the ANIMALS fit into this festival of mutual disparagement?[/QUOTE]

Well as an experienced debater that was what is known as a ho-check whereupon one individual makes an imbecile of themself and others call attention to the fact with the intent of taking the wind out of said imbecile's sails.  Nothing to do with animals but, sometimes nessesary. :-)
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 24, 2008 - 2:09PM #122
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

solfeggio wrote:

allthegood -
You mention that you have a problem with some of us (namely Sky and myself) showing such hostility to the people who eat meat.

Well...OK...I suppose we do this to a certain extent, but you should think about the reasons why this is so.

The way I see it, the fact that this forum even exists at all is something or a miracle in this meat-eating culture.  After all, vegetarians comprise only 2% of Americans (and doubtless this figure holds true for other countries as well).  And, only a very small percentage of vegetarians are vegans.

If you assume that vegetarians/vegans are animal rights advocates to one degree or another, then you are looking at a very, very small minority here.

Right?

We are swimming against the current of the culture, so to speak, and it's been upstream all the way.

Meat-eaters are the ones running things and, no matter how often people talk about being kinder to animals, etc., the fact remains that the slaughterhouses and battery hen farms, dairy farms, and cattle ranches are in no danger of going out of business, regardless of how they treat their animals.  And the dirty little secret is that the majority of these institutions care little or nothing about the pain and suffering of the animals in their "care."

Therefore, you really can't blame Sky or myself for becoming a tad "intense" (becca's term, and very apt) when faced with the almost insurmountable burden of trying to put our point across that animals matter.

I'm surprised that there isn't more hostility, considering what we are up against in this culture.



I understand hostile.  Just look at the title of this thread.  ;)  However, most of us, even those of us in positions as differing as those of yours and mine cannot maintain such hostility.  I know I came in here like a bear in a china shop, but like to think I've cooled off a little.  I've seen you hit the fan, and then cool off a little too.  I don't blame you for this, and I hope you don't blame me.  I do have some issues with Sky because I've never seen her cool off.  She always seems to post with a lot of venom.  Maybe she comes here to vent frustrations, and then cools of IRL, I don't know.  Maybe she's a predator that has convinced herself she is a house pet, I don't know that either, and I don't have enough info the determine. 

If all else fails, I can compare the status of your position to my position on Christianity.  Lest you forget, they seem to be running the show too. 

Anyhoo, I just think that we really do have some common goals.  I'd like to explore those more.  It might help us fight together instead of fighting each other. 

all

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 24, 2008 - 2:19PM #123
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

becca97 wrote:

hi,

i do remember, interesting use of term there 'percieved ethical dilema' ....



Thanks.  I used that term, because depending on where you stand, there are other solutions that can overcome it, and you may not see it as a dilemma at all.  As we've gone over somewhere on this board, we both (vegans and myself) see animals and humans on the same level.  There are some who don't, actually many who don't, and as such, there is no dilemma for them. 

 

becca97 wrote:


not entirly some atheltes cut out meat for their athletics career and then take it up again afterwards --- http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=723



http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=723



Ok, but you know that that really doesn't prove anything other than there are healthy people who do take up a vegan lifestyle and remain healthy, right? 


becca97 wrote:


there are certainly far too many people both those who eat meat and those who do not who are far removed from where their food comes from, who do not understand the process it goes through before it reaches the shop shelves/fridges.



agreed


becca97 wrote:


well according to terry pratchetts book 'pyramids' camels do indeed do geometry :p (it's a fictional fantasy book a kinda parallel of our history just abit distorted, if you havn't read them do)

seriously thank you for sharing that it makes a certina sense out of your position.



My reading list keeps getting longer, and my allotted time keeps getting shorter.  :o


becca97 wrote:


intense, thank you for sharing again it makes a certain sense of your position.



That's what I am going for.  I don't expect agreement, just a little bit of understanding. 

becca97 wrote:



true, but then the same is true of every diet.



Absolutely. 

all

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 25, 2008 - 12:23AM #124
Rosie-Toes
Posts: 675
[QUOTE=becca97;893420]And the reality for many humans is they have no choices but to kill and eat animals, the reality for some of us in the developed world however is we can choose more ethical ways of living.[/QUOTE]

This confused me. Are you implying that those people who live in small, isolated tribes are somehow less ethical than western vegans because they are living in the only way they know? What they engage in is not cruel factory-farming. They have lived that way for hundreds-- often thousands--of years. And they respect the land, and kill only what is necessary to survive.

The athapaskan tribes live in an area where very little vegetation grows. They kill caribou, beaver, and salmon for their very survival. This does not strike me as somehow less ethical than my choice to eat only vegetables.

"They have no choice but to kill" but we "choose more ethical ways of living." Sorry, but that implies that these people are somehow less ethical--that they are somehow "condemned" to living unethically--and I don't buy into that.

I don't mean to be difficult, and I hope you understand what I'm saying. To state that people who "have no choice" are somehow uncontrollably less ethical than those who choose vegan diets lacks cultural relativism.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 25, 2008 - 6:11AM #125
becca97
Posts: 2,562
[QUOTE=Rosie-Toes;918400]This confused me. Are you implying that those people who live in small, isolated tribes are somehow less ethical than western vegans because they are living in the only way they know?



no i'm not, what i said is what i'm implying in the developed world more of us have choices -- and no i'm not implying or thinking or asserting folks without choices are unethical or less ethical simply without choices. Of course had you bothered to WAIT for a reply to the above you wouldn't have needed to write the following condemnation.

What they engage in is not cruel factory-farming. They have lived that way for hundreds-- often thousands--of years. And they respect the land, and kill only what is necessary to survive.

The athapaskan tribes live in an area where very little vegetation grows. They kill caribou, beaver, and salmon for their very survival. This does not strike me as somehow less ethical than my choice to eat only vegetables.

"They have no choice but to kill" but we "choose more ethical ways of living." Sorry, but that implies that these people are somehow less ethical--that they are somehow "condemned" to living unethically--and I don't buy into that.

I don't mean to be difficult, and I hope you understand what I'm saying. To state that people who "have no choice" are somehow uncontrollably less ethical than those who choose vegan diets lacks cultural relativism.[/QUOTE]

i'm fairly certain i understand what you are saying a dam sight more than you bothered to understand what i'm saying i'm also certian if i ASKED you to clarify your position i WOULDN'T in the same post leap into assumptions i'd WAIT for a reply.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 25, 2008 - 8:16PM #126
Hmmmmmmm
Posts: 722
[QUOTE=becca97;916859]And where do the ANIMALS fit into this festival of mutual disparagement?[/QUOTE]

best sentence in this entire thread.
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 2:13PM #127
quineli8486
Posts: 17

Rosie-Toes wrote:

This confused me. Are you implying that those people who live in small, isolated tribes are somehow less ethical than western vegans because they are living in the only way they know? What they engage in is not cruel factory-farming. They have lived that way for hundreds-- often thousands--of years. And they respect the land, and kill only what is necessary to survive.


Well, wither way "ethics" and "morality" aside, scientifically speaking, homo sapiens (us) are omnivores by nature. It's proven by our teath, the basic nutrition we recieve from both meat and vegetables. It's a personal choice to not eat meat, but according to biology human beings ARE omnivorous. And I think I hear in the news, of parents who had started their child on a vegan diet, he was a toddler I think, and he was so malnurished that social services got involved.

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 3:17PM #128
Earthfreak
Posts: 882
There are a couple of stories like that, actually, and they're very sad.  There are a LOT of kooky people out there, who shoudlnt' be raising children.

It's not really about veganism, though.  Lots of kids are raised vegan and are perfectly healthy,  I'm not saying it's the ONLY way to raise healthy kids, but it's certainly reasonable.

One of the articles I found talks about parents starving their kid on a vegan diet, but then go on to say they were feeding the baby ground nuts, herbal tea and cod liver oil, which is NOT vegan.   


What we are talking about here is parents with a lot of issues messing up big time, in some cases the freaky, inadequate diets they're feeding their kids are vegan, but that isn't the problem in and of itself. 

I have no argument with the claim that humans are omnivores, and I don't actually even hope for a word where everyone is vegan (how delusional woudl that be?  But it would make much more sense to eat vegan much of the time and eat small scale, local produced (or hunted) animal protein when we do eat animal protein.

Can you even imagine people eating meat like once or twice a week though?   Or in dishes where it was 2% of the ingredients, rather than 80%?  That's more how humans have traditionally eaten it, and it would make a huge difference if we could move closer to that.
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 3:39PM #129
solfeggio
Posts: 8,523
Earthfreak -
Good post, and I agree with most of it.  Where I disagree is with people's claims that Homo sapiens sapiens is a natural omnivore, because this simply isn't true.  We don't have teeth adapted for tearing raw meat off the bones, and our digestive systems are forumlated to process plant materials, not flesh.

These are just a few simple scientific facts about us that most people just don't seem to know or, if they do, choose to ignore.

If anything, we are BEHAVIOURAL omnivores.  We eat meat because we choose to do this, not because we are naturally inclined. 

There is a difference.

http://microbiology.suite101.com/articl … _omnivores

Anyway, I agree with you that, because virtually everybody in the world eats meat/dairy in one form or another every day, because people like the taste of cooked meat, the world is not going to go vegetarian.  It doesn't matter how many studies show the links between meat-eating and various diseases, or how many times it has been proven that people can get all the protein, vitamins, minerals, and calcium from plants, people will always continue to eat their bacon and eggs, beef roasts, fast food burgers, etc.

The belief that meat is a healthy, important food item for humans is so deeply-ingrained in our culture that virtually everybody accepts it without question.  Therefore, those (very) few people who have decided for ethical, moral, or health reasons to stop eating meat and/or dairy are automatically classed as 'fringe' people following an 'extreme' diet, and who must be very unhealthy individuals. 

You mention the fact of some parents supposedly forcing their children to eat a  a 'vegan' diet and causing those children to starve, and how this is not really about veganism per se.  This is so true.  What I find interesting is that these sorts of stories always get a big press, while other stories in which children are abused and/or starved by parents who are not vegan never get the same amount of publicity.
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 4:32PM #130
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634
Gods Solf, it's like you don't even listen too me!

all
Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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