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Switch to Forum Live View United States Supreme 5 to 4 Decision- against the DP for child rape.
6 years ago  ::  Oct 10, 2008 - 5:55PM #51
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

the carpenter wrote:

I do disagree with your comment. In life of punishment the death penalty has to be applied. Like for example(and I know cult would agree on this as well) if you commit murder, if you betray american soldiers in war aka treason or if you commit indecentcy to a minor than the penalty must be applied. In the latter it is about morals and ethics
there are things that you just don't do. AS someone who is studying law, I know in other countries they kill child molesters, like in Nigeria and In Ghana for example. I wish we apply that here.:D


Yeah... they also cut off the hands of thieves... Kill women for showing their arms in public... perform female circumcisions to keep women "faithful"... Don't acknowledge that a woman is raped unless three MEN witness it...
Hell, let's just take up ALL their laws!

:mad:

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2008 - 6:12AM #52
becca97
Posts: 2,562
[QUOTE=the carpenter;817133]I do disagree with this point. The victim may be alive but is ruined on the inside.  Stats have shown people like Jeff Dahmer who were abused in this fashion(not to excuse his murders) have become rapists themselves.  I do believe that this should be done to anyone who molestes a child.:mad:  This is even worse terror than 9/11 has ever done.  This is worse for the children, not to mention for the children's children.  My mom has a friend who was raped as a child, but then her son did the same thing to another girl who is like 6.  All because the one who raped her never was punished with the death penalty. The victims need to get out there anger.[/QUOTE]

Emphasis mine, to highlight the first and most important point --- YOU can not possibly know that killing the rapist would have stopped any of the above from occuring -- it is simply erroneous ot claim death would have significantly changed the future events.

Secondly, speaking as a rape survivor/victim whilst i have been damaged in some ways one DOES recover, having worked intensivly with rape and abuse survivors many folks do recover and do NOT commit similar acts to others.

Thirdly there are many diverse ways for 'victims/survivors' to get out their anger at what has occured in a more nourishing and long term healing manner than seeking revenge through the DP. As a law student you should be aware of the various models of jurisprudence that cover this that do not use the DP which are effective for the survivor or have been proven to be so in many circumstances.


[QUOTE=the carpenter;817145]I do disagree with your comment.  In life of punishment the death penalty has to be applied.  Like for example(and I know cult would agree on this as well) if you commit murder, if you betray american soldiers in war aka treason or if you commit indecentcy to a minor than the penalty must be applied.  In the latter it is about morals and ethics
there are things that you just don't do.  AS someone who is studying law, I know in other countries they kill child molesters, like in Nigeria and In Ghana for example.  I wish we apply that here.:D[/QUOTE]

As someone who studies the law you will also know the MAJORITY of other countries do NOT apply the DP at all.

You state ""if you commit indecency to a minor then the penalty must be applied."" -- how are you defining minor? anyoen under age of consent? So what about in the UK a 16yr old having sexual relations with a 15yr old -- do they get the same punishment IE death as a 60yr old 'commiting indenecy' to a 15yr old?

Plus as has alreayd been raised, if rape of all stamps hold the DP what is to stop the offenders killing the victim removing any chance of victim testimony, afterall it is not as if their sentance is going to be worse for it?

It is all very well implying seeking the DP is the only moral and ethical course to take (thereby also implying anyone not seeking the DP is somehow less moral and ethical btw) but the DP has consequences for all invovled INCLUDING the victims and survivors.

Me i'm GLAD my fathers alive, i was able to be empowered, condem his actions and forgive him and move on -- he meanwhile calls in the middle of the night whilst drunk and is still eaten up with guilt --- it's a little difficult to face the responsibilty of ones actions when one is martyred by being killed.

I know many survivors who feel similarly -- and we all know about bubby's son and how brave he has been -- they do not wish for the DP in these cases either (and Bubby is in some circs pro-DP).
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2008 - 11:54AM #53
Bwaters427
Posts: 23
I am definitely not fond of the death penalty. As a Christian, I believe that God chooses when our time comes, not a court. But I have to agree with you in some ways. There are some crimes (rape of any person/animal, murder, etc.) that are so incredibly horrid that normal prison terms just don't seem to do justice. So I don't exactly know where I stand on these. I believe having to spend everyday in prison for the rest of their lives would be terrible, but not bad enough. Sometimes I wish "eye for an eye" was still acceptible. I guess I see where people for the DP are coming from, just nothing else seems to fit. So I agree with you, on how it is terrible that the courts decided that the DP was not adequate for one of these horrid crimes.
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2008 - 11:57AM #54
Bwaters427
Posts: 23
[QUOTE=Tmarie64;595185]I have to say this is a good ruling.  No one is killed.  Even after rape, the child DOES live and, with counseling, can go on to live a normal life.
It's not a capitol offense, and shouldn't be.[/QUOTE]

I can obviously tell that you have never been in this situation. People who have been raped (such as myself) can NEVER live a completely normal life. No amount of counseling can make those feelings go away! I'd appreciate if people would not say such stupid & insensitive things if they have not lived it!
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2008 - 1:09PM #55
becca97
Posts: 2,562
[QUOTE=Bwaters427;824758]I can obviously tell that you have never been in this situation. People who have been raped (such as myself) can NEVER live a completely normal life. No amount of counseling can make those feelings go away! I'd appreciate if people would not say such stupid & insensitive things if they have not lived it![/QUOTE]

I am sorry for what occured to you no-one should go through it at any age for any reason -- [COLOR="royalBlue"]however[/COLOR] i have also been raped (by my father as an adult woman) and bubbymommy's son was raped as a child --- BM speaks rightly with pride of her sons recovery and move from victim to survivor -- i too am a survivor, whilst it is true that one can not undo the rape one [COLOR="royalBlue"]can[/COLOR] move on and live a positive happy 'normal' life.

BM someone often pro DP is against it in this case (or she was last tiem she posted on this thread) I although usually against the DP anyway, am also against it in this case -- if, as he tried to do, my father had killed me (this left harder mental scars than the rape in actuality), i would not now be at university, passing very well, or dating an incredibly wonderful person where the sex is entirly consensual and wonderful.

And therein lies the difference -- Dead one is always a victim, alive one has the opportunity to become a survivor and live a decent life.

I hope you heal as much as possible {{hug}}

bx
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2008 - 2:08PM #56
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

Bwaters427 wrote:

I can obviously tell that you have never been in this situation. People who have been raped (such as myself) can NEVER live a completely normal life. No amount of counseling can make those feelings go away! I'd appreciate if people would not say such stupid & insensitive things if they have not lived it!


Obviously you don't look around B'net much... I have been raped. Got pregnant and an abortion because of the rape. Talk about stupid and insensitive... I"m not the one making OBVIOUSLY ignorant judgments about someone.
I live a normal life because I decided that s.o.b. was NOT going to ruin my entire life. I laughed the day he was sentenced to prison and let his mother know about the abortion.
Like Becca and Bubby's son, I chose not to be a victim and pity myself.  It happened.  I decided not to live with it for the rest of my life.

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2008 - 8:22PM #57
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[COLOR="Blue"]Yes, our son was brutally raped when he was just 5yrs old. The person that did this was a teenage boy that was not even sentenced to jail time. As angry as I was & still am about that, I would NEVER have asked for the DP regardless of the age of the rapist. I say this because I know without a doubt that our son would feel enormous guilt about this. He is nearly 13 now & we have talked recently about this very subject. He is very clear on this as well. Unless the victim was murdered while being raped, the DP just simply cannot be applied.  [/COLOR]
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2008 - 6:27AM #58
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277
Anger is expected.  It sounds like you have really done well to help him understand and deal with his.  You're a couple very special people, Mommy.
James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 18, 2008 - 10:29PM #59
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[COLOR="Purple"]Thank you. As parents we do whatever we have to to help our children. We were very determined from the beginning that this would not define him as person. Too many people hold onto that "victim" mentality & that is a huge disservice not only to themselves, but to those that love them. Every single person in this world has story. The trick is to be able to use our past to become productive, & not use it as an excuse for bad behavior.[/COLOR]
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