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Switch to Forum Live View No Death Penalty for the Mentally Ill
6 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2009 - 3:16PM #61
becca97
Posts: 2,562

bubbysmommy wrote:

Guys,
We need more people like you in this world. I have often wondered over the years how different life would have been had just one person stepped up & done the right thing. *sigh*


*sigh* indeed, in many ways those who did nothing are more responsible than Allard ever was, he at least was 'suffering' delusional behaviour and mental illness, before he went off his meds let aloen afterwards, what is their 'excuse/reason'? probably just #not wantig ot get invovled'

I do still miss her terribly & I think this is why I want justice for all those that have died the way that she & Rachael did.


which begs the subjective question 'what is justice?'

As for executing those that are known to be mentally ill.
I still go back to this. If they are together enough to form a reasoned plan & know the consequences of those actions, then they should be held to the same standard as someone that does not suffer from mental illness. The standard is now & has been, that they know the consequences of their actions. Jerry Allard did indeed know what would happen when he did this. He made several statements that made that perfectly clear. Therefore, I would have no problem sleeping at night knowing that he had been executed.


(general comments not aimed at anyone particularly)

and yet would he and others with similar issues have done what he/they did had he/they not been delusional even before he/they went of his/their meds?

possibly not --- ergo these folks ARE in effect being executed because they are mentally ill, sure the reasonaing and rationale are complex -- and i'm in no way leaping onto karma's 'nazi's' bandwagon -- but i do think these questions have to be raised and considered, -- in a respectful manner of course -- given we are talking about killing these people for actions undertaken as a direct result of their mental delusions/health problems ---

should people who act under delusions, even if some part of them knows they might be commiting a wrong action, be judged akin to people making non-delusional choices and ergo be killed via the death penalty?

there maynot be a 'right' or 'wrong' answer but i think to dismiss the 'delusional/mental health' aspect based solely on whether someone knew the act was 'right' or 'wrong' is to misunderstand the nature of mental delusion, and to ignore a key element that makes these folks significantly different to 'sane' murderers.

or maybe it is cruel to keep folks alive who have commited horrors under the nfluence of delusional behaviour, god knows mental institutions for the criminally insane are hardly pleasent and definatly NOT a soft option.

*sigh* difficult questions, probably no 'right' or 'wrong' answers.

bx

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 12:15AM #62
Karma_yeshe_dorje
Posts: 12,508
I have been reading about this problem.

The perception or attribution, rightly or wrongly, of criminality carries a strong social stigma.


~Wikipedia~

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 12:52AM #63
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119

Karma_Yeshe_Dorje wrote:

I have been reading about this problem.

~Wikipedia~


Of course criminal behavior carries a social stigma. It is supposed to.  I do not understand what you want here. You need to be more specific. Are you trying to say that criminal behavior should not have negative social consequences?   

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 12:58AM #64
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
(general comments not aimed at anyone particularly)

and yet would he and others with similar issues have done what he/they did had he/they not been delusional even before he/they went of his/their meds?

possibly not --- ergo these folks ARE in effect being executed because they are mentally ill, sure the reasonaing and rationale are complex -- and i'm in no way leaping onto karma's 'nazi's' bandwagon -- but i do think these questions have to be raised and considered, -- in a respectful manner of course -- given we are talking about killing these people for actions undertaken as a direct result of their mental delusions/health problems ---

should people who act under delusions, even if some part of them knows they might be commiting a wrong action, be judged akin to people making non-delusional choices and ergo be killed via the death penalty?

there maynot be a 'right' or 'wrong' answer but i think to dismiss the 'delusional/mental health' aspect based solely on whether someone knew the act was 'right' or 'wrong' is to misunderstand the nature of mental delusion, and to ignore a key element that makes these folks significantly different to 'sane' murderers.

or maybe it is cruel to keep folks alive who have commited horrors under the nfluence of delusional behaviour, god knows mental institutions for the criminally insane are hardly pleasent and definatly NOT a soft option.

*sigh* difficult questions, probably no 'right' or 'wrong' answers.

bx



Becca,
I must say that I did not see this sooner. I am sorry.
I should be very clear here, I do not want to execute those that are truly mentally ill. Those that absolutely have no control over their actions, should never be judged the same way that you & I should be.

Having said that, I do also believe that if someone is together enough to know the consequences of going off of their meds, forming a clear & concise plan & carrying that plan out? They, in my own opinion, should be judges just as harshly as the rest of us. This type of behavior screams of competence.

Now,
I also want to make it very clear, that regardless of what I have said above, the DP should be used only rarely & only when the guilt of the person being executed, is in way in question.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 3:10AM #65
Karma_yeshe_dorje
Posts: 12,508

stigma in relation to people with mental illness can be understood as a combination of problems of knowledge (ignorance), attitudes (prejudice) and behaviour (discrimination).


~International Journal of Mental Health Systems~

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 3:25AM #66
Karma_yeshe_dorje
Posts: 12,508

Prosecutors at the Victorian County Court have called for jail terms for five men who set fire to a mentally ill man last year.

The five Mornington Peninsula men threw petrol on Rosebud man Irving Plotkin and set fire to him.

The court heard Mr Plotkin's injuries were shocking, with more than half of his body badly burnt, and he would be disfigured and severely scarred for the rest of his life.

He was critically injured and more than half of his body was burnt.

The court heard his house was destroyed.


~ABC~

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 3:44AM #67
Karma_yeshe_dorje
Posts: 12,508

30% of the general public thought that someone with a mental health problem could not do a responsible job.


~Community Care~

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 7:04AM #68
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[FONT="Book Antiqua"]What does any of that have to do with this thread? In fact, what the heck does any of that have to do with the death penalty at all?!![/FONT]
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 8:45AM #69
Karma_yeshe_dorje
Posts: 12,508
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 20, 2009 - 10:06AM #70
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277
Stop it!  Post on topic or get reported... AGAIN.
Your little cheap shots at bubbysmommy are getting old and tired.
Just like your stupid little games on this thread.  Post on topic, or go away.
James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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