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6 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2008 - 11:26PM #11
divalicious
Posts: 363
[QUOTE=McAtheist;457132]Devalicioius and Becca -- thanks for your input.  Again it is interesting to see people's positions on this are something of a spectrum.

One thing I would like to clear up: when I mentioned repeat offenders, I meant that they repeated whatever crime you considered to be worthy of the death penalty (if any).  So, getting caught for stealing cars wouldn't count toward the death penalty (unless you think auto theft should be so punished.)[/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree with you, which is why I so clearly listed the crimes that I believe incurs the death penalty, as a correct sentence.

I got your question.

Divalicious
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2008 - 12:41AM #12
becca97
Posts: 2,562
[QUOTE=divalicious;456318]Oh no, here I come again, rested, less enraged, and blinding you with -SCIENCE.
SCIENCE. SCIENCE. SCIENCE. SCIENCE. SCIENCE.

Please, can't we use it to put the right people to death? The murdering serial rapist, the serial child rapist/ predator . SCIENCE AND ETHICS...could move you past your fear of putting the wrongly accused and convicted to death (which is heartbreaking) and move you into a point of view that at least understands why a human who violates these codes, in our society, forfeits their right to live.

Please, please USE SCIENCE. NOT RHETORIC.
Only a slightly raised voice, but you get my point. My SCIENTIFIC POINT.

Divalicious[/QUOTE]

Yelling science in shouty letters does not make a scientific point.

DNA evidence is not infallible although it is useful, it also needs context, can and has been misused many, many times in MOJ cases and needs to be viewed in context of each individual case.  http://www.mnadvocates.org/24Aug20052.html

Speaking of blinding with science http://www.metnews.com/articles/piza080802.htm ....

[QUOTE]could move you past your fear of putting the wrongly accused and convicted to death (which is heartbreaking) and move you into a point of view that at least understands why a human who violates these codes, in our society, forfeits their right to live.[/QUOTE]

Not fear, thank you for the preusmption btw, it is simple knowledge. I know to some when talking of the DP emotionalism over knowledge is the only way i prefer knowledge it is more reliable and i know MOJ cases and issues and i know that sicence is a tool it is not infallible it is not the holy grail of justice it like any other process changes and has revisions, it needs context and like any other tool it can be and often is misused.

I understand why some people are pro DP but i reject the notion that in a civilised society the DP exsists it sets dangerous precedants and generally devalues life, the majority of the world manages just fine without it although there is always constant preasure to return it.

If you wait for me to agree with and support the DP then hades will freeze over.

btw
Using shouty letters other than in the occasional word for emphasis is in netiquette terms considered rude.

So science not so solid a basis and proven to be misused and fallible.

http://www.amnesty.org/ is an excellent place to start for a more international perspective on human rights issues and the DP and MOJ are both human rights issues, even if some people prefer to dismiss very real issues as "fears" pah.
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2008 - 12:44AM #13
becca97
Posts: 2,562
[QUOTE=McAtheist;457132]Devalicioius and Becca -- thanks for your input.  Again it is interesting to see people's positions on this are something of a spectrum.

One thing I would like to clear up: when I mentioned repeat offenders, I meant that they repeated whatever crime you considered to be worthy of the death penalty (if any).  So, getting caught for stealing cars wouldn't count toward the death penalty (unless you think auto theft should be so punished.)[/QUOTE]

Not at all thank you for asking considered and thought provoking questions.
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2008 - 1:53AM #14
nancyflorencecarlson
Posts: 170
I can understand someone getting really mad and killing someone or someone even killing for money but to intentionally cause someone to suffer through torture tactics such as rape should be punishable by death because it would hurt the victim less to actually die.
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2008 - 7:32AM #15
becca97
Posts: 2,562
[QUOTE=nancyflorencecarlson;457343]I can understand someone getting really mad and killing someone or someone even killing for money but to intentionally cause someone to suffer through torture tactics such as rape should be punishable by death because it would hurt the victim less to actually die.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps but i'm dam sure i prefer being alive and being the person i am now than if i'd been killed ... and i know i don't want and wouldn't want someone killed in my name. Not everyone feels this way who has been raped, abused et al fair enough but lets not presume because someone has had an offense commited against them or their loved ones they immediatly wish for death of themselves or others.
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2008 - 11:57AM #16
divalicious
Posts: 363
Having someone force you to have sex is a brutal, horrifying, human rights violation.
Putting the scumbag to death, who felt it was their purpose and their right to devalue another humans "human rights"  deserves to be permanently removed from the planet.

It is just Good Science. It removes the bad strain of DNA from the gene pool-forever.
And, by the way, Science is a tool that is 99.9987% infallible. Human error is the reason it cannot be 100%. Science, stands on it's own, whether you like it or not.
I will take "those odds" over your caviler attitude, regarding the victims- any day, Becca.

Humans who study ethical decision making, and make an A in the class -like I did. Along with studying Sociology (A) and Psychology (B), and Political Science (A+) Western Civ. (B+) American  Gov't (A+)  like I did, understand the moral implications of the death penalty, and more to the point, we understand how not putting violent, serial rapists/murders to death creates more victims.

I understand how science, and ethics, can create an outcome, in the arena of justice.

Just once, can you hold the victim of a crime in your heart, and, contemplate how their human rights were violated?

Can you let their struggle to find meaning in a world gone mad mean more to you then the vermin you protect? It might help me to see your humanity.

Honestly, Why do you care about the dregs? Why do you care about the worst of humankind?
Please, put some of your most abundant energy into helping those who deserve not only your help, but your respect, and I am quite positive they are owed your sincere apology.

Divalicious
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2008 - 1:04PM #17
becca97
Posts: 2,562
[QUOTE=divalicious;457897]Having someone force you to have sex is a brutal, horrifying, human rights violation.



yeah i actualy got that when the one person any person exepcts to look after them was doing so the opposite.

Putting the scumbag to death, who felt it was their purpose and their right to devalue another humans "human rights"  deserves to be permanently removed from the planet.



In YOUR opinion, not necessarily in actual fact or reality.

It is just Good Science. It removes the bad strain of DNA from the gene pool-forever.



Not everyone who commits rape etc do so due to bad DNA.

And, by the way, Science is a tool that is 99.9987% infallible. Human error is the reason it cannot be 100%. Science, stands on it's own, whether you like it or not.



Science does nto stand on its own because it is a tool, like it or not honey science is not infallible anymore than computers are: why? You said it yourself the human element, and the human element is a hell of a lot more fallible than 0.0013%, and when human lives often innocent human lives hang in the balance i'd prefer a little honesty rather than delusion and pseudo faith in pseudo science.

I will take "those odds" over your caviler attitude, regarding the victims- any day, Becca.



Nasty and untrue comment there.

Humans who study ethical decision making, and make an A in the class -like I did. Along with studying Sociology (A) and Psychology (B), and Political Science (A+) Western Civ. (B+) American  Gov't (A+)  like I did, understand the moral implications of the death penalty, and more to the point, we understand how not putting violent, serial rapists/murders to death creates more victims.



Good for you, however it was meeting criteria that got you your marks not the conclusions you reach, so long as one uses supporting theory and evidence one can reach any conclusion and still get A's and B's.

I understand how science, and ethics, can create an outcome, in the arena of justice.



Good for you, now if you can bring yourself to understand the complexities in the arena of MOJ (Miscarriges of justice) you might just grasp justice is not a black and white arena.

Just once, can you hold the victim of a crime in your heart, and, contemplate how their human rights were violated?



I do often, as i do with ALL people and animals. You choose to be selective i do NOT. 

Can you let their struggle to find meaning in a world gone mad mean more to you then the vermin you protect? It might help me to see your humanity.



Fighting for HR in all arenas is humanity, havign been raped and abused and fidning forgivness for ones attacker is showing humanity. Fightng for MOJ cases is showing humanity, fighting for the value of life instead of devaluing life is showing humanity.  That you choose to see it otherwise does not alter the reality.

So why not show YOUR humanity and stop making this about personal abuse and nasty ad hominem attacks?

Honestly, Why do you care about the dregs? Why do you care about the worst of humankind?
Please, put some of your most abundant energy into helping those who deserve not only your help, but your respect,..



I care about ALL life and ALL people, and put alot of my energy into aiding MOJ cases and combatting ignorance about MOJ and DP cases, i have earlier in my life aided other abuse victims and i will always hold compassion for them in my heart but no offense to myself or anyone else will make me abandon my principles which are a basic part of who i am.

Unless oen can care about all life dregs and all one can never truly care about the "deserving". True comapssion as taught by sages throughout history is not selective.

.. and I am quite positive they are owed your sincere apology.[/QUOTE]

No they are not, they have always had and have my empathy and understanding but i will not apologise for supporting life over death, for supporting ALL people not just those easiest to support.

You on the otherhand owe me an apology for insinuating the nasty assed things you have in this thread. But we both know you are not about to give it, you convieniently forget your compassion for fellow abuse victims when talking to anyone who can forgive or does not support the DP.

Until you can converse with some modicum of maturity and respect this is my last word to you; you might have been abused in the most horrific ways imaginable and you have my eternal empathy for that BUT that does NOT give you the right to lash your tongue on other people who have ALSO been through horrific acts, simply because they do not agree with your opinion on the DP.

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2008 - 7:25PM #18
McAtheist
Posts: 7,592
[QUOTE=nancyflorencecarlson;457343]I can understand someone getting really mad and killing someone or someone even killing for money but to intentionally cause someone to suffer through torture tactics such as rape should be punishable by death because it would hurt the victim less to actually die.[/QUOTE]

Nancy, I think it is also less likely that a person who tortures can ever be rehabilitated. 

"Sentenced to execution for the torture-murder of three boys, Mr. Dodd stated in a recent court brief, "If I do escape, I promise you I will kill and rape again, and I will enjoy every minute of it."

I personally don't think we should waste a single iota of time, energy or concern for a person that makes that kind of statement.
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6 years ago  ::  May 15, 2008 - 9:49PM #19
coldwhitelight
Posts: 4
[QUOTE=McAtheist;452519]This is just a sort of laundry list of questions regarding when and how to apply the death penalty.

1.  What crimes (if any) do you think should be punishable by the death penalty?

2.  Should the state be able to execute someone who has only killed/harmed once, or should that be reserved for repeat criminals?

3.  Should there be federal standards as to what degree a case must be proved?  (Finding the man's semen in an 8 year-old child would be very strong evidence, for example.)  Could that standard be less stringent if the person has already been convicted for the same kind of crime before?  Just once before or more? 

4.  How many appeals should be allowed (if any)? Should the courts be forced to deal with them quickly, say less than 1 year?

5.  Should there be one universal method of execution, based on scientific evidence that says that method is the most humane?

6.  What other ideas or concerns do you have?[/QUOTE]

1. Only premeditated murder, and the torture chamber/horror movie type stuff you hear about in the news occasionally.

2. Once is enough when talking about the disregard for any standards involved with the crimes I feel are death penalty worthy.

3. Not federal, but there needs to be strong evidence. A confession or DNA is a good start, maybe equally strong stuff, I'm no crime expert to tell all the evidence.

4. With the crimes and evidence needed in my ideas, appeals seem rather unnecessary, but having one heard would seem to be a necessary, to avoid any problems. This should be done quickly, and the sentence done quickly. No need to keep these people around for a long time.

5. Not necessarily, as long as it isn't some Middle Ages style torture.

6. Not in particular, just making sure the wrong person didn't get killed.
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6 years ago  ::  May 15, 2008 - 9:49PM #20
coldwhitelight
Posts: 4
[QUOTE=McAtheist;452519]This is just a sort of laundry list of questions regarding when and how to apply the death penalty.

1.  What crimes (if any) do you think should be punishable by the death penalty?

2.  Should the state be able to execute someone who has only killed/harmed once, or should that be reserved for repeat criminals?

3.  Should there be federal standards as to what degree a case must be proved?  (Finding the man's semen in an 8 year-old child would be very strong evidence, for example.)  Could that standard be less stringent if the person has already been convicted for the same kind of crime before?  Just once before or more? 

4.  How many appeals should be allowed (if any)? Should the courts be forced to deal with them quickly, say less than 1 year?

5.  Should there be one universal method of execution, based on scientific evidence that says that method is the most humane?

6.  What other ideas or concerns do you have?[/QUOTE]

1. Only premeditated murder, and the torture chamber/horror movie type stuff you hear about in the news occasionally.

2. Once is enough when talking about the disregard for any standards involved with the crimes I feel are death penalty worthy.

3. Not federal, but there needs to be strong evidence. A confession or DNA is a good start, maybe equally strong stuff, I'm no crime expert to tell all the evidence.

4. With the crimes and evidence needed in my ideas, appeals seem rather unnecessary, but having one heard would seem to be a necessary, to avoid any problems. This should be done quickly, and the sentence done quickly. No need to keep these people around for a long time.

5. Not necessarily, as long as it isn't some Middle Ages style torture.

6. Not in particular, just making sure the wrong person didn't get killed.
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