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Switch to Forum Live View justice or vengeance
6 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2008 - 3:22PM #161
isness
Posts: 315
[QUOTE=richardt;445986]A simply terrible analogy, When my child breaks a rule, when they were young, they were removed from the family, so to speak, with quiet time in another room away from everyone else, I'm sure it felt like they were being removed from the family, the exact results I hoped for. To be a member of the family, you need to have respect for those in the family and follow the rules.

I'm sorry you can't see the difference between misbehaving at the diner table and premeditated murder!!![/QUOTE]

And I am sorry that you can't see that we are ALL  part of the SAME family.  We are all human
beings living on this one little  planet.  We sorta need to help each other out rather than fight like children!  We can't really afford the primitive response of retaliation and vegeance if peace is our ultimate goal.  There are just too many of us now to continue to throw blocks at each like toddlers on the playground!  It's time to GROW UP.  It is time to get to the root of our problems...to address and prevent problems before they happen rather than live with our heads in the sand until we are forced to retaliate....... after the damage has been done.

What causes people to murder?  This is where we need to pay attention....this is where we need to take action.  Perhaps the murderers
didn't have families that cared about teaching them about respect or love.  Where is the justice when  an abused, neglected, unloved child grows up to lie, steal, rape and murder and ultimately to die in jail?  Do you honestly expect children who do not have the benefit of ever knowing love....or ever knowing the proper way to conduct  themselves in society to instinctively know how to be a respectable and honorable citizen?
I'm not exactly sure about the details....but it is obvious to me that we as loved, and rational adults must have some sort of resposibility when it comes to the well-being of our fellow humans.  Perhaps if just one mentor stepped into this young murderer's life to provide the leadership and care that this child needed.....a murder never would have occured.

It makes much more sense to
take productive and helpful actions BEFORE the murder, rape or whatever......rather than to wait until AFTER the fact and then RETALIATE!!!  We need to abandon our neanderthal ways of war-ing and get down to the business of lending each other a hand before it's too late! 

This life we live is complicated.  It's not as simple as separating the good and the bad, punishing the bad people and protecting the good.  That way of thinking is "old hat".   
It's time to evolve.
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 5:51AM #162
MedKit77
Posts: 1,384
[QUOTE=isness;447135]And I am sorry that you can't see that we are ALL  part of the SAME family.  We are all human beings living on this one little  planet.  We sorta need to help each other out rather than fight like children!  We can't really afford the primitive response of retaliation and vegeance if peace is our ultimate goal.  There are just too many of us now to continue to throw blocks at each like toddlers on the playground!  It's time to GROW UP.  It is time to get to the root of our problems...to address and prevent problems before they happen rather than live with our heads in the sand until we are forced to retaliate....... after the damage has been done.[/QUOTE]

Quite honestly, I see many religions as the "root" of many of these problems, as they often promote intolerance. People who are gay, a different color, other religions, etc. are all preached against from many pulpits. And of course, there are the extremists in every religion who take it upon themselves to exact "vengeance" on those that their beliefs tell them are "evil" etc.

How many wars, conflicts, etc. have had their "roots" in religious intolerance? The Crusades, the Inquisition, the continuing strife in the Middle East. The term "jihad" means "holy war", exacted on others who don't belong to the "right" religion or ethnicity.

And let's not forget "ethnic cleansing" where whole groups of people are at risk of being annihilated, simply because they belong to a group that another group has decided is "wrong" and needs to be eradicated.

[QUOTE=isness;447135]What causes people to murder?[/QUOTE]

There are many answers to this question. A person who is mentally ill can murder, and a person who is protecting his/her family can murder. Are they both the same?

[QUOTE=isness;447135]This is where we need to pay attention....this is where we need to take action.  Perhaps the murderers didn't have families that cared about teaching them about respect or love.  Where is the justice when  an abused, neglected, unloved child grows up to lie, steal, rape and murder and ultimately to die in jail?  Do you honestly expect children who do not have the benefit of ever knowing love....or ever knowing the proper way to conduct  themselves in society to instinctively know how to be a respectable and honorable citizen?[/QUOTE]

Once children become adults, they can choose to move beyond what they experienced as children and unlearn the lessons they learned from uncaring, bigoted, or abusive parents. We see examples of this every day. Certainly we as a society should give every child every opportunity we can, but falling back on "My father beat me every day" or "We had no money when I was growing up" as an excuse for acting out of accordance with the mores of society simply doesn't cut it. Unless an individual is clinically sociopathic, they know very well the difference between right and wrong, and choose (as do we all) whether or not to live within the parameters of society's mores.

[QUOTE=isness;447135]I'm not exactly sure about the details....but it is obvious to me that we as loved, and rational adults must have some sort of resposibility when it comes to the well-being of our fellow humans.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. But they, in turn, have responsibility to the rest of society, as well.

[QUOTE=isness;447135]Perhaps if just one mentor stepped into this young murderer's life to provide the leadership and care that this child needed.....a murder never would have occured.[/QUOTE]

Or if this young individual had made the choice to be a valuable, contributing member of society instead of a detriment, things might have been different.

[QUOTE=isness;447135]It makes much more sense to take productive and helpful actions BEFORE the murder, rape or whatever......rather than to wait until AFTER the fact and then RETALIATE!!!  We need to abandon our neanderthal ways of war-ing and get down to the business of lending each other a hand before it's too late![/QUOTE]

Ensuring that an individual who has committed a crime against society (murder, rape, etc.) is punished, is not "retaliation". Being punished by our justice system is supposed to deter crime. There was a time when every criminal (except those who are clinically psychopathic) had to make the conscious decision to break the law, and the decision they make isn't anyone's fault but their own. Yes, everyone makes bad decisions. I've made bad decisions, and I've paid for them. I have CHOSEN, however, not to break the laws of our society. That is a choice that every individual has.

[QUOTE=isness;447135]This life we live is complicated.  It's not as simple as separating the good and the bad, punishing the bad people and protecting the good.  That way of thinking is "old hat".   
It's time to evolve.[/QUOTE]

How, exactly, do you suggest we "evolve"? Evolution isn't something that can be forced. It's something that happens gradually, in response to stimuli.
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 7:23AM #163
daddywags
Posts: 118
hi,
first, richardt, you have a very negative attitude about life and that shows through in your posts.
so far, justice       just-ice  has not been defined by all.    revenge has not been defined by all.  there is a big difference between the two.  many men, women too, have studied long and written about both.
a little reading would be in order to gain a better understanding out side of our own 5 minutes of thought about the two.

justice--- to be just--living a life of justice.
vengeance --revenge-living a life in vengeance.
being just is living your life so no one else can have a problem with what you do.  it takes work as that would require us to think prior to speaking or doing things.
vengeance is a re-action to what goes on around us.
peace follows thought...
daddywags
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 1:38PM #164
Marcyy
Posts: 723
Richard says "We are not going to evolve to the point you are talking about for a very long time. We humans are a violent race, a product of our past, of our tribal mentality. It's in our genes, protect one's turf, home, family, be wary of those who are different for you may not know their ways, so be on guard. You would like to think that we have outgrown that mentality, but it is still present. How are you going to insure that a child is loved and cared for? How do you stop abuse in the home? How do we insure that all parents are loving and care for their children? We as humans have a frontal lobe that is too small and adrenaline glands that are too big, it makers us naturally aggressive. I fear there will always be those who do evil, those who truly enjoy murder and torture.

"Your outlook is a bit on the naive side, like those calling for world peace, that I'm afraid will never happen."

I would like to say this isn't that negative. In a perfect world it would not be true. Unfortunately, humans are very flawed.
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 2:42PM #165
isness
Posts: 315
MedKit77;

"there are many answers to this question. A person who is mentally ill can murder, and a person who is protecting his/her family can murder. Are they both the same?"

[COLOR="Green"]Isness replies:
A person or a country "protecting their family/country" can be used as an excuse for violence just as easily as the murderer's claiming to be an abused child.   In the eyes of MANY the war in Iraq is all about "protecting our country and our families."  However, I believe these people have succumb to being force fed fear....and willing to adopt this mantra as their "excuse" for violence.  Excuses are not legitimate reasons to conduct violemce. However, there must be a bit of truth in the "excuse" otherwise the "excuse" never would have come into the minds of those commiting the violence.  Perhaps in the minds of people on the outside look upon these reasons as "excuses" but in the minds of the individuals defending  their "right" to commit violence.....the excuse is not an excuse...but indeed a legitimate reason.   [/COLOR]




Once children become adults, they can choose to move beyond what they experienced as children and unlearn the lessons they learned from uncaring, bigoted, or abusive parents. We see examples of this every day.

[COLOR="green"]Isness replies:  I'm sure the children coming from these backgrounds and choosing a better way had some "help" along the way.  [/COLOR]

Certainly we as a society should give every child every opportunity we can, but falling back on "My father beat me every day" or "We had no money when I was growing up" as an excuse for acting out of accordance with the mores of society simply doesn't cut it. Unless an individual is clinically sociopathic, they know very well the difference between right and wrong, and choose (as do we all) whether or not to live within the parameters of society's mores.

[COLOR="green"]Isness replies:  We all do the best we can.[/COLOR]




Ensuring that an individual who has committed a crime against society (murder, rape, etc.) is punished, is not "retaliation". Being punished by our justice system is supposed to deter crime. There was a time when every criminal (except those who are clinically psychopathic) had to make the conscious decision to break the law, and the decision they make isn't anyone's fault but their own. Yes, everyone makes bad decisions. I've made bad decisions, and I've paid for them. I have CHOSEN, however, not to break the laws of our society. That is a choice that every individual has.

[COLOR="green"]Isness:  You've got to be kidding. Do you actually believe that jail time or even the death penalty is a deterant? Criminals don't always think about the consquences!  Do you think a murderer actually thinks...."Hey....maybe I better not kill my wife....I don't really want to go to jail."   [/COLOR]


How, exactly, do you suggest we "evolve"? Evolution isn't something that can be forced. It's something that happens gradually, in response to stimuli.

[COLOR="Green"]Isness:  Just the same as we as individuals evolve.  We are faced with difficult and sometimes traumatic situations in life.  We look for help from one another and struggle to make the choices that will bring us to a place where we can be proud of ourselves and feel good about who we are.  We are not animals....we as humans have the ability to CHOOSE to evolve....and I don't mean physically....I mean mentally, emotionally, spiritually.  And most of us can't do this by ourselves.  We turn to friends, family,  faith, or whatever it is that brings us strength and courage.  My original point.......the people who have nobody to turn to should not be rejected as hopeless and BAD people.  They need help from a very early age.

It takes courage to take a different path...a path that is not worn and clear.  The war path, the path of violence is clear and well worn.  It's easy because everyone before us has gone that route.  It is up to us to strike out in a new direction.....to challenge ourselves, and turn to human creativity and each other for answers to life's biggest, most challenging situations.   Some ole', same ole'........no longer works.....actually it never did.[/COLOR]
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 6:54PM #166
MedKit77
Posts: 1,384
[QUOTE=isness;449138][COLOR="Green"]Isness replies:
A person or a country "protecting their family/country" can be used as an excuse for violence just as easily as the murderer's claiming to be an abused child.[/QUOTE][/COLOR]

Absolutely. But I believe there is a difference between someone murdering another person because s/he "dissed" you, and murdering another person because s/he has invaded your home and is waving a knife around and threatening your family.

I believe we have to protect our country. 9/11 was proof of that. However, I do not believe that war is the answer. Especially not this ridiculous war that is based on lies and is killing Americans every day.

[QUOTE=isness;449138][COLOR="Green"]In the eyes of MANY the war in Iraq is all about "protecting our country and our families."  However, I believe these people have succumb to being force fed fear....and willing to adopt this mantra as their "excuse" for violence.[/QUOTE][/COLOR]

I agree that the people who support this war are doing so based on the lies they have been told and have accepted.

[QUOTE=isness;449138][COLOR="Green"]Excuses are not legitimate reasons to conduct violemce. However, there must be a bit of truth in the "excuse" otherwise the "excuse" never would have come into the minds of those commiting the violence.  Perhaps in the minds of people on the outside look upon these reasons as "excuses" but in the minds of the individuals defending  their "right" to commit violence.....the excuse is not an excuse...but indeed a legitimate reason.[/QUOTE]  [/COLOR]

That is where the mental illness comes into play. A sociopath or psychopath can justify their actions to themselves.

[QUOTE=isness;449138][COLOR="Green"]Isness replies:  I'm sure the children coming from these backgrounds and choosing a better way had some "help" along the way.  [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Not always. And the fact remains, help or not, there is a point in everyone's life where they make the decision whether or not to abide by societal laws and mores.

[QUOTE=isness;449138][COLOR="Green"]Isness replies:  We all do the best we can.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I don't know that I believe that. Some people don't do anything and are happy to let everyone else do the work while complaining that they are "downtrodden" etc.

[QUOTE=isness;449138][COLOR="Green"]Isness:  You've got to be kidding. Do you actually believe that jail time or even the death penalty is a deterant? Criminals don't always think about the consquences!  Do you think a murderer actually thinks...."Hey....maybe I better not kill my wife....I don't really want to go to jail."   [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Note that I said "supposed to."

So far as the example you gave: Yes, I do believe that people make that choice, whether or not its conscious.

[QUOTE=isness;449138][COLOR="Green"]Isness:  Just the same as we as individuals evolve.  We are faced with difficult and sometimes traumatic situations in life.  We look for help from one another and struggle to make the choices that will bring us to a place where we can be proud of ourselves and feel good about who we are.  We are not animals....we as humans have the ability to CHOOSE to evolve....and I don't mean physically....I mean mentally, emotionally, spiritually.[/QUOTE][/COLOR]

Human beings ARE animals, we're just more evolved than most. We have something I call the "lizard brain" that causes us to have autonomic responses to things. The "fight or flight" syndrome is a good example of that.

And yes, we CAN choose to evolve. That was my point. Some people choose to and some people choose not to. Some people choose to be productive, contributing members of society and some people choose to prey on productive, contributing members of society. Some people choose to depend on society to provide them with everything, even though they could be out providing for themselves.

[QUOTE=isness;449138][COLOR="Green"]And most of us can't do this by ourselves.  We turn to friends, family,  faith, or whatever it is that brings us strength and courage.  My original point.......the people who have nobody to turn to should not be rejected as hopeless and BAD people.  They need help from a very early age.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Absolutely. But my point was that even people who did not have this help, who grew up in the most dire situations can become contributing members of society, if they CHOOSE to do so.

[QUOTE=isness;449138][COLOR="Green"]It takes courage to take a different path...a path that is not worn and clear.  The war path, the path of violence is clear and well worn.  It's easy because everyone before us has gone that route.  It is up to us to strike out in a new direction.....to challenge ourselves, and turn to human creativity and each other for answers to life's biggest, most challenging situations.   Some ole', same ole'........no longer works.....actually it never did.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree that it takes courage to take a different path. That was my point. People CHOOSE which path to take. While it may be easier to choose to be a contributing member of society if you grew up in a comfortable, loving environment, the fact remains that it is always the CHOICE of the individual which path to follow.
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 8:04PM #167
isness
Posts: 315
Medkit:
"And yes, we CAN choose to evolve. That was my point. Some people choose to and some people choose not to. Some people choose to be productive, contributing members of society and some people choose to prey on productive, contributing members of society. Some people choose to depend on society to provide them with everything, even though they could be out providing for themselves."

[COLOR="Green"]Isness replies:
I don't think it's black and white like that.  There are millions of people who fall somewhere inbetween the providers and the the people who "prey" on the providers.  There are many people out there who are *unable* to survive on their own....for whatever reason....their own ignorance...their learning disabilities, their mental illnesses, their addictions....where do we draw the line?  How many of these people do we help and how many of them do we refer to as leeches?  And who makes this decision? 

I'm no brain sugeon.  My husband and I are regular people with a regular family....we work very hard and some days we wonder.....are we going to make it another month.....how are we going to come up with next month's $1,000 insurance $$?  We manage to do it....but I honestly feel for people who have bigger problems making ends meet.  We know how hard it is.... We live comfortabley....but work very hard to do so.  And I honestly don't mind sharing our hard earned money with those who can't manage to keep afloat all on their own.  I can understand.  It's not easy.  Sure there are leeches....but I don't think the majority of people needing help are leeches....I think they are good people doing the best they can the only way they know how. [/COLOR]
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2008 - 2:21PM #168
DAH54
Posts: 3,318

divalicious wrote:

I don't owe the two animals who raped me a damn thing bette, not one thing.


Agreed you don't.

divalicious wrote:

And, that you think less of me because I won't give them forgiveness, turns my stomach. I would also kill the one who raped me at the age of 71/2 - if I ever knew who he was, because he didn't just get me.
I wasn't his first or last. But you go on now...you have the answers, you go on now.

But, do me the favor of withholding your response to me, anything else said to me on this topic would just be crass.

Divalicious


I think some believe we forgive not for others as much as ourselves, or for ourselves. Got to know that you are OKAY before you can accept that anyone else truly is. To often we get caught up in those only if I had, or I should have, we blame ourselves for things outside of our control.

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