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Switch to Forum Live View All races began with Noah's sons; the dark, the light and the white.
4 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2011 - 8:14PM #111
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222

system problem.

"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 26, 2011 - 3:34PM #112
Luvjust4U
Posts: 815

Feb 9, 2011 -- 1:12PM, Bairre wrote:

What I meant, was that my father uses these passages from the Bible to justify slavery and racism, as you have mentioned Noah cursed Ham's offspring.  I do not believe in Yahweh's existance, and therefore find the story to be purely myth.

However, I find the assumptions made in the passage to be racist.  It is simply put that there was never a flood that wiped out all people.  Genetics has proven that Africans are the original humans and the rest of us developed our biological characteristics later down the evolutionary timeline.  Also, Ancient Egyptians were black, not the paler skinned version we think of due to European racism during the 19th Century.  As it was considered unthinkable black people could have developed such a civilization.  There are many books that attest to this racist worlview, and to the deliberate whitewashing of Egyptian culture and race.

Secondly, the assumption that Canaan was cursed is interesting in considering all cultures who controlled the province, we now know as, Palestine called it Canaan prior to the Hellenic conquest.  From the Egyptians, to the Assyrians, to the Babylonians; they all referred to the whole of Palestine as Canaan, and to the people living there as Canaanites.  The term Hebrew didn't historically arise until later.  There is however historic and genetic proof that the Phoenicians were wide travelers of the Mediterranian and East Atlantic.  Their Genetic markers have shown up as wide afar as West Africa to Northern Europe, and they are attested to be a well established seafaring and trading culture in the earliest writings from the Greeks, and others.  Of the other names mentioned by you as Canaan's offspring, the Hittites culture and writing system pre-dates that of the Biblical culture and writing systems, and therefore I would find that assumption suspect, at best. 

Furthermore, the Amorites, Jebusites, etc. who were all annihilated under Biblical stories of genocide cannot be attested to historically, outside of the Bible (which is erroneous as a historical document).  The possibility that these groups were Semitic or proto-Semitic tribal affiliations which would have been known to other Semitic or proto-Semitic groups of the area, but not to their conquerers is plausible.  However, that being said, they would have been racially, ethnically, culturally, linguistically, and most likely religiously similar.  A good correlative exmple would be the Celtic Gauls/Britons.

Thirdly, the assertation that Japheth's offspring begat Indo-Europeans is also not Genetically compatable.  We know that Caucasoid (white) people came from the Caucus Mountains and thereabouts.  We know this gentically, and the fossil record also supports this.  And the genetics also prove that it was from Africa that Caucasians developed.

Another point I'd like to make is that Ham was the son who was disrespectful, and maltreated his father.  From this, the assumption that Black people are his offspring points to the arrogance and racism which is promoted throughout the Bible.  My feelings are that it wasn't Japheth's, who was considered the good son, who begat Ethiopians, it was Ham.  It is a purely mythological story, and the meaning reverberates even today.  The story says black people were the curse of Yahweh, even if indirectly, and that the offspring of Ham, the disrespectful and bad son of Noah are black.  We have to remember that King James Bible was written in a time when racism was policy under the English Empire, and that it was largely translated from Roman Catholic sources as well as Hellenic Orthodox ones.  That being said, the Catholic Church actively changed the discriptions of many of their church fathers to "whiten" them too.  Origin, Clement, and others were African, and as this was prior to Arab conquest of North Africa, they were black, though their depictions are not.




Shalom Bairre,


I appreciate your honesty with the topic although the myth part is hard to agree with seeing archeology confirms many places, people and events that are recorded in the Scriptures. Much of creation still exists including the constant theme of a 7 day week in most cultures, lunar and solar calendars that identify signs , seasons,  days and years. It is good that you researched the African history and identify with the facts that all humans orginated in Africa and migrated to different parts of the planet. It is not unbelievable to think a couple can give birth to children who look different than themself. I just wanted you to know your thoughts on the topic are appreciated.

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2011 - 2:17AM #113
Bairre
Posts: 122

Feb 26, 2011 -- 3:34PM, Luvjust4U wrote:


Feb 9, 2011 -- 1:12PM, Bairre wrote:

What I meant, was that my father uses these passages from the Bible to justify slavery and racism, as you have mentioned Noah cursed Ham's offspring.  I do not believe in Yahweh's existance, and therefore find the story to be purely myth.

However, I find the assumptions made in the passage to be racist.  It is simply put that there was never a flood that wiped out all people.  Genetics has proven that Africans are the original humans and the rest of us developed our biological characteristics later down the evolutionary timeline.  Also, Ancient Egyptians were black, not the paler skinned version we think of due to European racism during the 19th Century.  As it was considered unthinkable black people could have developed such a civilization.  There are many books that attest to this racist worlview, and to the deliberate whitewashing of Egyptian culture and race.

Secondly, the assumption that Canaan was cursed is interesting in considering all cultures who controlled the province, we now know as, Palestine called it Canaan prior to the Hellenic conquest.  From the Egyptians, to the Assyrians, to the Babylonians; they all referred to the whole of Palestine as Canaan, and to the people living there as Canaanites.  The term Hebrew didn't historically arise until later.  There is however historic and genetic proof that the Phoenicians were wide travelers of the Mediterranian and East Atlantic.  Their Genetic markers have shown up as wide afar as West Africa to Northern Europe, and they are attested to be a well established seafaring and trading culture in the earliest writings from the Greeks, and others.  Of the other names mentioned by you as Canaan's offspring, the Hittites culture and writing system pre-dates that of the Biblical culture and writing systems, and therefore I would find that assumption suspect, at best. 

Furthermore, the Amorites, Jebusites, etc. who were all annihilated under Biblical stories of genocide cannot be attested to historically, outside of the Bible (which is erroneous as a historical document).  The possibility that these groups were Semitic or proto-Semitic tribal affiliations which would have been known to other Semitic or proto-Semitic groups of the area, but not to their conquerers is plausible.  However, that being said, they would have been racially, ethnically, culturally, linguistically, and most likely religiously similar.  A good correlative exmple would be the Celtic Gauls/Britons.

Thirdly, the assertation that Japheth's offspring begat Indo-Europeans is also not Genetically compatable.  We know that Caucasoid (white) people came from the Caucus Mountains and thereabouts.  We know this gentically, and the fossil record also supports this.  And the genetics also prove that it was from Africa that Caucasians developed.

Another point I'd like to make is that Ham was the son who was disrespectful, and maltreated his father.  From this, the assumption that Black people are his offspring points to the arrogance and racism which is promoted throughout the Bible.  My feelings are that it wasn't Japheth's, who was considered the good son, who begat Ethiopians, it was Ham.  It is a purely mythological story, and the meaning reverberates even today.  The story says black people were the curse of Yahweh, even if indirectly, and that the offspring of Ham, the disrespectful and bad son of Noah are black.  We have to remember that King James Bible was written in a time when racism was policy under the English Empire, and that it was largely translated from Roman Catholic sources as well as Hellenic Orthodox ones.  That being said, the Catholic Church actively changed the discriptions of many of their church fathers to "whiten" them too.  Origin, Clement, and others were African, and as this was prior to Arab conquest of North Africa, they were black, though their depictions are not.




Shalom Bairre,


I appreciate your honesty with the topic although the myth part is hard to agree with seeing archeology confirms many places, people and events that are recorded in the Scriptures. Much of creation still exists including the constant theme of a 7 day week in most cultures, lunar and solar calendars that identify signs , seasons,  days and years. It is good that you researched the African history and identify with the facts that all humans orginated in Africa and migrated to different parts of the planet. It is not unbelievable to think a couple can give birth to children who look different than themself. I just wanted you to know your thoughts on the topic are appreciated.





Archeology confirms the names Odin, Thor, and Freyr as well as places and events in the Eddas, but no one is suggesting they existed or that the Eddas aren't myths.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2011 - 3:27PM #114
Nonchristianheaven
Posts: 147

I don't care where races came from. We are all the same race, the human race. Maybe environment has changed us but we are still the same family.


There is no such thing as a white person who has no black ancestry somewhere along the line, even if that line is thousands of years old. 


If I get a sunburn for awhile I am a different race and I get made fun of. My skin color is temporarily different and I get made jokes about. huh? If my hair dye messes up and I get purple hair, their people go again laughing.


Temporarily looking different brings enough ridicule.


If we were the same color, even hair and eyes, even weight and height, someone would find something to make fun of or a way to exclude someone.

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2011 - 6:00PM #115
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222

Mar 9, 2011 -- 3:27PM, Nonchristianheaven wrote:


I don't care where races came from. We are all the same race, the human race. Maybe environment has changed us but we are still the same family.


There is no such thing as a white person who has no black ancestry somewhere along the line, even if that line is thousands of years old. 


If I get a sunburn for awhile I am a different race and I get made fun of. My skin color is temporarily different and I get made jokes about. huh? If my hair dye messes up and I get purple hair, their people go again laughing.


Temporarily looking different brings enough ridicule.


If we were the same color, even hair and eyes, even weight and height, someone would find something to make fun of or a way to exclude someone.




I've never seen a white person and I have never seen a black person.  I started this thread to show that we are all from one family...the human race.  We all descended from Noah's sons.


Based on your comments...it could be that those around you who laugh and make fun...could be jealous; I would take a good look in the mirror.  Friends lift one another up...they don't tear each other down.   

"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2011 - 7:22PM #116
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222

 


Shakespeare used this poem in: The Merchant of Venice.



Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.


I thought about it because I watched the movie: The Pianist today. 


There is a book being talked about in the Media and all over the web called: The Negro A Beast.  It was written by Charles Carroll in around 1900...it builds upon the mindset of Buckner Payne.  These thoughts (if there were an ounce of truth in them) would negate what I have shared based on the Bible (how Noah's son's were divided...at the tower of babel).  I trust the Word of God over people like Carroll and Payne any day. 


 


"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2011 - 2:35PM #117
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222

There are some people who prefer not to be identified by race; one such person was in the news today...Herman Cain.  Some people are ashamed of their roots and some don't have a clue.

"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 12:04PM #118
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222

It was disturbing to learn that some denominations [during the slaves in America era] held to the theory that blacks were beasts and therefore it was not unjust to make slaves of theml.


Their justification.  See: the Pre-Adamite view and the Cainite view. 

"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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1 year ago  ::  Jun 05, 2013 - 8:20PM #119
wohali
Posts: 10,227

"We all descended from Noah's sons."


 


No, we aren't.

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1 year ago  ::  Jun 06, 2013 - 10:38AM #120
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222

Jun 5, 2013 -- 8:20PM, wohali wrote:


"We all descended from Noah's sons."


 


No, we aren't.




Noah's sons are: Shem, Ham and Japheth


"These [are] the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread." Genesis 9:19


Unless you have a better response other than: "No, we aren't" I'll have to take the Word of GOD as gospel.


Thank you for commentingSurprised


 


 

"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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