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Switch to Forum Live View Is abortion murder?
3 years ago  ::  Sep 28, 2011 - 1:39PM #831
BertMueller
Posts: 1

Yes. It is. 


Why? 


Let me give you some answers. 


Pro-Choice advocates may say: "it is uncertain when human life begins; that's a religious question that cannot be answered by science." 


I say: If there is uncertainty about when human life begins, don't you think that the benefit of the doubt should go to preserving life? 


Medical textbooks and scientific research works consistenly agree that human life begins at conception. Dr. Bradly M. Patten's textbook "Human Embryology" states, "it is the penetration of the ovum by the spermatozoan and the resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual." 


Some of the world's most prominent scientists and physicians testified to a U.S. Senate comittee that human life begins at conception. Professor Hymie Gordon of the Mayo Clinic states, "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." 


Many other prominent scientists and physicians have likewise affirmed with certainty that human life begins at conception. Dr. Landrum Shettles says, "I oppose abortion. I do so, first, because I accept what is biologically manifest -- that human life commences at the time of conception -- and, second, because I believe it is wrong to take innocent human life under any circumstances. My position is scientific, pragmatic, and humanitarian." 


The possibility of human cloning does nothing to discredit the fact that all humans conceived in the conventional manner begin their lives at conception. 


So, in a word, Yes. Abortion is the taking of an innocent human life. Abortion is murder. 


Whether or not this means that mothers who aborted their babies ought to be thrown in jail or abortion doctors ought to be jailed, I am not going to worry about that. 


The fact that abortion is legal is a great tragedy, an injustice worse than the holocost. And by that I'm not trying to say that the holocost was a picnic either. 45 million aborted babies. That's a lot. Just think of the number of nurses, doctors, workers, husbands, wives, mothers, children, etc. that are not alive right now because of this terrible evil. Perhaps we aborted the woman who would have cured cancer. I think it is shortsighted and stupid for our society to kill off its greatest resource. 

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2011 - 1:48AM #832
Bairre
Posts: 122

Jan 21, 2009 -- 12:28PM, Daldianus wrote:

Pro-lifers:  Is abortion murder?  If yes then should it be therefore made illegal?  If yes then what should be done to women who abort illegally?  Thank you.  (they asked the same questions to these people: video ... very interesting reactions)




Its not murder, no worries.

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 04, 2011 - 11:23PM #833
Cooper
Posts: 400

Sep 28, 2011 -- 1:39PM, BertMueller wrote:


Yes. It is. 


Why? 


Let me give you some answers. 


Pro-Choice advocates may say: "it is uncertain when human life begins; that's a religious question that cannot be answered by science." 


I say: If there is uncertainty about when human life begins, don't you think that the benefit of the doubt should go to preserving life? 


Medical textbooks and scientific research works consistenly agree that human life begins at conception. Dr. Bradly M. Patten's textbook "Human Embryology" states, "it is the penetration of the ovum by the spermatozoan and the resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual." 


Some of the world's most prominent scientists and physicians testified to a U.S. Senate comittee that human life begins at conception. Professor Hymie Gordon of the Mayo Clinic states, "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." 


Many other prominent scientists and physicians have likewise affirmed with certainty that human life begins at conception. Dr. Landrum Shettles says, "I oppose abortion. I do so, first, because I accept what is biologically manifest -- that human life commences at the time of conception -- and, second, because I believe it is wrong to take innocent human life under any circumstances. My position is scientific, pragmatic, and humanitarian." 


The possibility of human cloning does nothing to discredit the fact that all humans conceived in the conventional manner begin their lives at conception. 


So, in a word, Yes. Abortion is the taking of an innocent human life. Abortion is murder. 


Whether or not this means that mothers who aborted their babies ought to be thrown in jail or abortion doctors ought to be jailed, I am not going to worry about that. 


The fact that abortion is legal is a great tragedy, an injustice worse than the holocost. And by that I'm not trying to say that the holocost was a picnic either. 45 million aborted babies. That's a lot. Just think of the number of nurses, doctors, workers, husbands, wives, mothers, children, etc. that are not alive right now because of this terrible evil. Perhaps we aborted the woman who would have cured cancer. I think it is shortsighted and stupid for our society to kill off its greatest resource. 





I think if you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one.  You have no say regarding other people's bodies.



I find it insulting that you compare abortion to the Shoah, men, women, children, already born and walking the earth murdered.

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2011 - 10:40AM #834
Grimace_the_bold
Posts: 47

Is abortion murder?  Only if using mouthwash and antibiotics are also murder.


 


A Zygote (the majority of things getting aborted) is no more a human than skin cells we clean off our bodies every time we bathe or shower, and has no rights.  What about the embryo?  Embryos have no conciousness and no higher mental faculties, and are functionally no more "Human" than tumors. 


Murder is the deliberate taking of a human life, and it comes down to what we define as "human".  What makes us different from other forms of life?  Mainly our level of sentience, but mostly because we told ourselves we are different from other forms of life.  So saying abortion is murder is at best a subjective value judgment with no empirical backing since the deifinition of "human" and therefore "human life" are usually not defined in a way to include living human beings but exclude corpses and cells in the body. 

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 25, 2012 - 8:16PM #835
CLBERNADETTEH
Posts: 27

Jan 21, 2009 -- 12:28PM, Daldianus wrote:

Pro-lifers:

Is abortion murder?

If yes then should it be therefore made illegal?

If yes then what should be done to women who abort illegally?

Thank you.

(they asked the same questions to these people: video ... very interesting reactions)


Is abortion murder? = YES "you shall not kill"


If yes then should it be made illegal? =YES


If yes then what should be done to women who abort illegally? =  My answer is that any women who aborts should come to realize that they have done a wrong thing (many do come to this realization) my best advice is to go and ask for gods forgiveness (confession) God will forgive you he loves us all the same he just doenst love the things we do but He is very forgiving if you are truly sorry and are ready to perform your pennence,you dont throw a women in jail for such things that would be incredibly wrong and against Gods truth.simply just ask for forgiveness

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2012 - 4:43PM #836
Grimace_the_bold
Posts: 47

Oct 25, 2012 -- 8:16PM, CLBERNADETTEH wrote:

Jan 21, 2009 -- 12:28PM, Daldianus wrote:

Pro-lifers: Is abortion murder? If yes then should it be therefore made illegal? If yes then what should be done to women who abort illegally? Thank you. (they asked the same questions to these people: video ... very interesting reactions)



Is abortion murder? = YES "you shall not kill"


If yes then should it be made illegal? =YES


If yes then what should be done to women who abort illegally? =  My answer is that any women who aborts should come to realize that they have done a wrong thing (many do come to this realization) my best advice is to go and ask for gods forgiveness (confession) God will forgive you he loves us all the same he just doenst love the things we do but He is very forgiving if you are truly sorry and are ready to perform your pennence,you dont throw a women in jail for such things that would be incredibly wrong and against Gods truth.simply just ask for forgiveness




 


The Bible is filled with murder and bloodshed, much of it a-okay with God.  If Abortion is murder, than what about dashing infants on rocks, ripping open the bellies of pregnant women, and the sluaghter of all non virgins after a Hebrew force takes a city? 


 


Funny how that works, life is sacred until God tells his people to kill another group of people.  Then the children of that group, born or unborn, are all on the chopping block while the killers are exalted. 

Unless you have a good secular reason as to why we should preserve unintelligent fetal cells and bestow on them the same personhood status as fully grown and sentient human beings, appealing to the Bible won't matter.  There's enough post term abortions in the Bible. 

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2012 - 6:59AM #837
CLBERNADETTEH
Posts: 27

excuse me but there is nothing of what your saying in the catholic bible! youve read that rubbish from some false book! abortion is  murder of a human life!

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2012 - 7:13PM #838
Grimace_the_bold
Posts: 47

Oct 27, 2012 -- 6:59AM, CLBERNADETTEH wrote:


excuse me but there is nothing of what your saying in the catholic bible! youve read that rubbish from some false book! abortion is  murder of a human life!





Numbers 5:11-21 basically outlines how an unfaithful wife (or unfaithful according to the man who owns her) is put under a ritaul to determine whether she is pregnant with someone else's spawn, and it concludes with the prayer to cause a miscarriage in the woman if she was unfaithful.  Kind of hard to be "pro life' when you pray for miscarriages and treat it as a remedy for infedelity leading to impregantion of the woman.



1 Samuel 15:3 details how God's Chosen people, following the rules of war include infanticide.  Life is sacred?  Yeah right.



Numbers 31:17 reinforces the rules of war God laid out, this time with Moses telling his warriors to kill every non virgin including pregnant women. 



So there you have it, Torah gives clear and precise examples of abortion and killing children.  Now let's see what Jesus says about the Torah:



2 Timothy 3:16 treats all Scriptures, including the Torah, as instrumental in teaching rightoueness and the will of God.



Matthew 5:18-19 says that the Law is still valid, and not one bit of the law can be relaxed.



Luke 16:17 says that not one letter of the Law, as found in the Torah, is able to disappear. 



Matthew 5:17 Says Jesus is not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. 



In other words, Jesus not olny backs the Laws of the Torah, but the commands about killing children and pregnant women in war, forcing a woman to miscarry for suspected adultry, and all the other lovely parts of the "Pro Life" Bible, are still true and correct and are examples of good and right and proper behvaior. 



So when did the Torah become "rubbish"?  When did Catholics use another Bible from the Protestants?  Or the Orthodox?  When did the Old Testament become a "false book"? 

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2012 - 5:53PM #839
CLBERNADETTEH
Posts: 27

the catholic religion is the oldest church of them all and the only true one in my opinions as it was the church that christ put together at the start so i dont follow anything else. abortion is murder there is no point trying to sugar coat it. it ends a life......simple!

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 29, 2012 - 12:09AM #840
Grimace_the_bold
Posts: 47

Oct 28, 2012 -- 5:53PM, CLBERNADETTEH wrote:


the catholic religion is the oldest church of them all and the only true one in my opinions as it was the church that christ put together at the start so i dont follow anything else. abortion is murder there is no point trying to sugar coat it. it ends a life......simple!




What religious text did Jesus study and read?  The Torah.  The Torah predates the Catholic Church by a few thousand years, is the basis for the teachings of Jesus and the Catholic Church by extension.  You can't have Christianity and the New Testament without the Torah.


 


Since I cited the Torah, the holy text of Jesus himself and all of his apostiles, you can learn about how God loves killing babies in the Bible.  I recommend Numbers, Exodus, Leviticus, and Dueteronomy for some inspiring stories of divine wrath against the unborn. 


 


Oh and abortion is not murder since murder is the premediated taking of another human life, as in someone who can tell you not to kill them.  The ancient Hebrews didn't start counting a baby as a person until 120 days passed from actual birth as part of their customs dealing with the high child mortality rate of ancient times.  The certainly didn't give much concern about the babies or fetuses of other people either, as the Bible so clearly illistrates.  If abortion is murder, than the Bible condones it since the Hebrews were exalted for killing babies and ripping the fetuses from their mother's wombs. 


 


All of it in the Bible under the Torah, or the Old Testament as it's called in the Chrisitian sects. 

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