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Switch to Forum Live View Is abortion murder?
4 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2010 - 5:31PM #771
amcolph
Posts: 16,259

Jan 16, 2010 -- 2:43PM, Bei1052 wrote:


Jan 14, 2010 -- 2:56PM, amcolph wrote:

Previously, you said:


"If a ZEF is equal to a human being it's because it is a human being."


Right?


And a ZEF, at the beginning, is a single cell with a human genome.


Where does the humanity of that cell lie, if not in the genome?



What do you mean "Where does the humanity of that cell lie"? There's no special meaning to being a human. There's no inate quality which makes human beings, human beings. Having a "human genome" does not make something a human being, as parts of the whole, which aren't the whole themselves (i.e., somatic cells), also have a "human genome".




So what makes the zygote a 'human being' capable of being murdered in the same sense as a post-natal individual is capable of being murdered?


If it's not the genome nor the rest of the cellular material which contains it, what then?

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 18, 2010 - 2:00AM #772
Bei1052
Posts: 986

Jan 16, 2010 -- 5:31PM, amcolph wrote:

So what makes the zygote a 'human being' capable of being murdered in the same sense as a post-natal individual is capable of being murdered?


If it's not the genome nor the rest of the cellular material which contains it, what then?



The same thing that makes a post-natal individual capable of being murdered as it does a viable fetus: "Humanity" is not characterized by some special property. There is no "it". Human beings are not labeled by where we reside, what we have or what we're capable of.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 18, 2010 - 10:49AM #773
amcolph
Posts: 16,259

Jan 18, 2010 -- 2:00AM, Bei1052 wrote:


Jan 16, 2010 -- 5:31PM, amcolph wrote:

So what makes the zygote a 'human being' capable of being murdered in the same sense as a post-natal individual is capable of being murdered?


If it's not the genome nor the rest of the cellular material which contains it, what then?



The same thing that makes a post-natal individual capable of being murdered as it does a viable fetus: "Humanity" is not characterized by some special property. There is no "it". Human beings are not labeled by where we reside, what we have or what we're capable of.




Yet you have asserted that humanity 'begins' at a fixed point.  You should be able to do better than that, it seems to me, if you are going to be sarcastic about other people's arbitrary assertions of other points of beginning.


If "humanity" is not characterized by any special property, then what is to prevent us from arbitrarily declaring the "humanity" of any creature?

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 18, 2010 - 12:51PM #774
Bei1052
Posts: 986

Jan 18, 2010 -- 10:49AM, amcolph wrote:

Yet you have asserted that humanity 'begins' at a fixed point.  You should be able to do better than that, it seems to me, if you are going to be sarcastic about other people's arbitrary assertions of other points of beginning.



I wasn't actually being sarcastic. If I was, you'd most definitely know it. But I digress.


No, that's not what I said. I said that a human being comes into existence at the end of fertilization, which isn't a matter of philosophy, metaphysics or any thing else of the like, but a matter of scientific fact. It's an, for lack of a better word, "immature" human being, but a human being nevertheless (Given time, it wiill develop into what you perceive to be a "mature" or "fully formed human being"). Maybe there's a disconnect or something, but it seems to me that you're treating being a human to incorporate something "special", when it doesn't. Human beings aren't human beings because we're born or because we know how to walk or because we can speak or because we can reason or anything else of the like, nor are we human beings because we have the genome of one (Which doesn't make sense as, I pointed out prior, a hair follicle would also be a human being because it contains a human being's entire genome).


If "humanity" is not characterized by any special property, then what is to prevent us from arbitrarily declaring the "humanity" of any creature?



Nothing. You can declare the humanity of whatever you wish.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 22, 2010 - 6:17PM #775
Catholiclady02
Posts: 7

Abortion is definitely not murder.  If it was then just about every sexually active woman out there is a murderer because women spontaneously abort the embryo or fetus a good percentage of the time without even knowing it.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2010 - 3:53AM #776
karbie
Posts: 3,300

Amen. Some people consider it to be life from the moment the sperm fertilizes the egg, but unless it gets to imbed itself in the uterus, that's as far as that particular zef is going to go. And even that isn't a guarantee, as some women know and many others are blessed with not knowing if there's a problem with the zef that causes it to be rejected.

"You are letting your opinion be colored by facts again."
'When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you."
these are both from my father.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2010 - 7:59AM #777
faith713
Posts: 3,892

Jan 15, 2010 -- 6:51PM, IDBC wrote:


Howdy


The question of wether or not abortion is murder appears to hinge wether or not the fetus is a human being and at what point does it aquire that status.  


Now I do not know wether or not a person has a soul or not, I do not believe so, but I  could be wrong. 


Taking a purely materialist perspective perhaps we can make an analogy with cars.   At what point in its creation-manufacturing does a car become a car?  None of the parts by themselves is a car.   All the parts must be assembled in order for it to be a car.   It would therefore seem to me that the fetus attains the status of being a human being when it is capable of taking its own first breath. 


Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You Smile




Your analogy is seriously flawed:


Cars are property to be bought, sold, used or destroyed at will. Human beings, including the unborn, are not property to be destroyed or used as we see fit.


A fetus is a human being, why can't you accept that fact?


 

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."--John14:6

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.-- John 3:16

"We love Him because He first loved us."--1 John 4:9-10

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear ... "
1 John 4:18
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2010 - 8:30AM #778
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,741

Jan 18, 2010 -- 12:51PM, Bei1052 wrote:


Jan 18, 2010 -- 10:49AM, amcolph wrote:

Yet you have asserted that humanity 'begins' at a fixed point.  You should be able to do better than that, it seems to me, if you are going to be sarcastic about other people's arbitrary assertions of other points of beginning.



I wasn't actually being sarcastic. If I was, you'd most definitely know it. But I digress.


No, that's not what I said. I said that a human being comes into existence at the end of fertilization, which isn't a matter of philosophy, metaphysics or any thing else of the like, but a matter of scientific fact. It's an, for lack of a better word, "immature" human being, but a human being nevertheless (Given time, it wiill develop into what you perceive to be a "mature" or "fully formed human being"). Maybe there's a disconnect or something, but it seems to me that you're treating being a human to incorporate something "special", when it doesn't. Human beings aren't human beings because we're born or because we know how to walk or because we can speak or because we can reason or anything else of the like, nor are we human beings because we have the genome of one (Which doesn't make sense as, I pointed out prior, a hair follicle would also be a human being because it contains a human being's entire genome).


If "humanity" is not characterized by any special property, then what is to prevent us from arbitrarily declaring the "humanity" of any creature?



Nothing. You can declare the humanity of whatever you wish.




Science relies on physical evidence to determine which of its claims are deficient and which are explanations consistent with evidence. When asked by amcolph, you have failed to point to any physical evidence to support your claim that the zygote formed at the end of fertilization is a human being as murderable as baby, child or adult human being. When asked directly what it is (and it's quite clear from what amcolph wrote that he was talking about what it is physically) about the cell that forms from the union of sperm and egg that makes it a human being, you gave the nonscientific, non-answer that there isn't anything that makes something a human being. Your view is your view, and you are entitled to it, but it isn't scientific. When asked for physical evidence, you can't respond by repeating your claim, or say "there isn't any," and expect a person who is thinking scientifically or critically to accept your claim.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2010 - 9:17AM #779
Marysara722
Posts: 2,548

Jan 23, 2010 -- 8:46AM, newsjunkie wrote:


What happened to the delete post button?




News, try changing your preferences to view the thread with the "oldest" post (the OP) showing first, and the tab should reappear.

I'm not sure what's up with that glitch but it seems to work when the change goes through.



Thanks,
MSara
Bnet Host

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2010 - 10:34AM #780
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,741

Jan 23, 2010 -- 9:17AM, Marysara722 wrote:


Jan 23, 2010 -- 8:46AM, newsjunkie wrote:


What happened to the delete post button?




News, try changing your preferences to view the thread with the "oldest" post (the OP) showing first, and the tab should reappear.

I'm not sure what's up with that glitch but it seems to work when the change goes through.



Thanks,
MSara
Bnet Host





ty marysara

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