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Switch to Forum Live View Is abortion murder?
6 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2010 - 9:27PM #761
amcolph
Posts: 20,246

Jan 13, 2010 -- 8:29PM, Bei1052 wrote:


Nope.




Now you've lost me.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2010 - 1:51PM #762
Bei1052
Posts: 986

I don't see how.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2010 - 2:56PM #763
amcolph
Posts: 20,246

Jan 14, 2010 -- 1:51PM, Bei1052 wrote:


I don't see how.




Previously, you said:


"If a ZEF is equal to a human being it's because it is a human being."


Right?


And a ZEF, at the beginning, is a single cell with a human genome.


Where does the humanity of that cell lie, if not in the genome?

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2010 - 5:35PM #764
faith713
Posts: 3,892

Jan 13, 2010 -- 6:20PM, Godgirl wrote:


Faith...i hate to break the news to you and i say this as someone who has been involved with the christian faith....the bible is clear cut whereas life is not. Not everything is black and white wrong or right. Somethings come in degrees of stages of right or wrong. I dont believe all abortions are wrong but i believe some are. Like i have stated before i believe late term abortions are wrong because at that point the fetus is an infant. 


 




 


And some believe they have the "choice" to kill their daughter if she lives under their roof. So much for beliefs, eh?


Early term or late term, abortion still kills a human being. Age or dependence does not justify the death of one's son or daughter.


 

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."--John14:6

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.-- John 3:16

"We love Him because He first loved us."--1 John 4:9-10

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear ... "
1 John 4:18
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2010 - 5:47PM #765
karbie
Posts: 3,329

And some believe it's justified to gun down a man in the House of God because that doctor performs abortions.


Or just to bomb a clinic.


The only relation that Honor killings have with abortions would be if the woman required one, or if you view her murder as retro-active abortion on her family's behalf.


It isn't just daughters, though--a son who is leaving their faith, or found to be a homosexual, is also at risk of honor killings.


It's odd, isn't it? To us, anyone who would consider "honor killings" correct is dishonorable.

"You are letting your opinion be colored by facts again."
'When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you."
these are both from my father.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2010 - 6:51PM #766
Idbc
Posts: 4,647

Howdy


The question of wether or not abortion is murder appears to hinge wether or not the fetus is a human being and at what point does it aquire that status.  


Now I do not know wether or not a person has a soul or not, I do not believe so, but I  could be wrong. 


Taking a purely materialist perspective perhaps we can make an analogy with cars.   At what point in its creation-manufacturing does a car become a car?  None of the parts by themselves is a car.   All the parts must be assembled in order for it to be a car.   It would therefore seem to me that the fetus attains the status of being a human being when it is capable of taking its own first breath. 


Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You Smile

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2010 - 2:43PM #767
Bei1052
Posts: 986

Jan 14, 2010 -- 2:56PM, amcolph wrote:

Previously, you said:


"If a ZEF is equal to a human being it's because it is a human being."


Right?


And a ZEF, at the beginning, is a single cell with a human genome.


Where does the humanity of that cell lie, if not in the genome?



What do you mean "Where does the humanity of that cell lie"? There's no special meaning to being a human. There's no inate quality which makes human beings, human beings. Having a "human genome" does not make something a human being, as parts of the whole, which aren't the whole themselves (i.e., somatic cells), also have a "human genome".

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2010 - 5:31PM #768
amcolph
Posts: 20,246

Jan 16, 2010 -- 2:43PM, Bei1052 wrote:


Jan 14, 2010 -- 2:56PM, amcolph wrote:

Previously, you said:


"If a ZEF is equal to a human being it's because it is a human being."


Right?


And a ZEF, at the beginning, is a single cell with a human genome.


Where does the humanity of that cell lie, if not in the genome?



What do you mean "Where does the humanity of that cell lie"? There's no special meaning to being a human. There's no inate quality which makes human beings, human beings. Having a "human genome" does not make something a human being, as parts of the whole, which aren't the whole themselves (i.e., somatic cells), also have a "human genome".




So what makes the zygote a 'human being' capable of being murdered in the same sense as a post-natal individual is capable of being murdered?


If it's not the genome nor the rest of the cellular material which contains it, what then?

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 18, 2010 - 2:00AM #769
Bei1052
Posts: 986

Jan 16, 2010 -- 5:31PM, amcolph wrote:

So what makes the zygote a 'human being' capable of being murdered in the same sense as a post-natal individual is capable of being murdered?


If it's not the genome nor the rest of the cellular material which contains it, what then?



The same thing that makes a post-natal individual capable of being murdered as it does a viable fetus: "Humanity" is not characterized by some special property. There is no "it". Human beings are not labeled by where we reside, what we have or what we're capable of.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 18, 2010 - 10:49AM #770
amcolph
Posts: 20,246

Jan 18, 2010 -- 2:00AM, Bei1052 wrote:


Jan 16, 2010 -- 5:31PM, amcolph wrote:

So what makes the zygote a 'human being' capable of being murdered in the same sense as a post-natal individual is capable of being murdered?


If it's not the genome nor the rest of the cellular material which contains it, what then?



The same thing that makes a post-natal individual capable of being murdered as it does a viable fetus: "Humanity" is not characterized by some special property. There is no "it". Human beings are not labeled by where we reside, what we have or what we're capable of.




Yet you have asserted that humanity 'begins' at a fixed point.  You should be able to do better than that, it seems to me, if you are going to be sarcastic about other people's arbitrary assertions of other points of beginning.


If "humanity" is not characterized by any special property, then what is to prevent us from arbitrarily declaring the "humanity" of any creature?

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