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Switch to Forum Live View Is abortion murder?
6 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 12:09PM #51
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,505

apotter]Is abortion murder?  wrote:

Is abortion murder?  YES!   The reason that  most of the people on your video responded as they did, probably has a whole lot to do with the fact that we are not trying to be vindictive to woman who have abortions.


Translation:  "We don't want to be rude to the filthy murderess."

All we want is the murdering of babies stopped.


Then promote a change in culture.  I live in the South, where women are taught they need lovers to have self-worth.  Many think babies will make their boyfriends love them or that the baby will love them.  For those who only see babies as love toys or Social Security ... how is that respecting their lives?  Our constitution says that you are a citizen when BORN or naturalized.  You only "count" when you are born.  The bible prescribes a smaller punishment for men who cause miscarriages and don't hurt the woman than men who cause miscarriages and DO hurt the woman.  People who are born with "fetus in feto" (or however you spell it) ... basically, your identical twin is growing inside of you with varying levels of success ... are removed and we don't consider it murder when we cut out that skull and arms growing in your abdomen.

If it ever became illigal then, yes woman (and the "doctors" who perform the abortions) would probably go to prison, the same as if they killed a 7 year old or a 40 year old, but that is not really our concern.


Why bother with jail?  If you make it illegal, they'll just try it themselves.  Maiming and death is usually the result of DIY surgery.  But, hey, a woman's life doesn't HAVE to be respected!  I mean, we're already here, alive, sentient, etc -- but the parasitic life is WAY more important!

God tells us in the Bible, that He  knows us before we were born and that He has plans for us while we are in our mothers womb!


He knows us before we were born.  What does that mean?  He knew us a million years ago ... so what?  That doesn't mean we were alive in ANY form a million years ago.  I am going to get a degree in nursing (hopefully) ... in the future.  Just because I know it doesn't mean it exists NOW.  I would like to know when ensoulment occurs according to the bible.  I tried looking up "infants" and "child" ... but couldn't find what I was looking for.  It's entirely possible that it is not in there because the whole "separate soul" thing is more a Greco-Roman thing than a Jewish thing (hence, bodily resurrections).  Telling us that God says He knew us before we were born does NOT say we are ensouled at conception ... since, like I noted earlier, we were obviously not alive a million years ago, but God still knew us.  Our country views you as a person after birth (whether you came out naturally or had to be cut out prematurely) and psychologically, infants must be around 1-2 years old to pass the mirror test and otherwise develop a sense of self.


You can't get any clearer than that.


Clear and rational are two different things, apparently.


And for the poster who says that it's her right to do with her body what she wants, it's not your body that you're killing.  if it was your body, it would suicide.  It's your baby's body


No, it's not our body.  However, for all the respect you give a non-viable life, you sure don't respect ours -- and we are obviously alive, sentient, ensouled, etc.  You have no proof except a misinterpreted passage to prove ensoulment occurs at conception.  Yes, it's alive.  So is the E. coli in my intestines.  Yes, it's human.  So is a corpse.  I will become pro-life ONLY when I get more evidence for this assertion other than irrational and misinterpreted ones.  What you need is God to say "Okay, before conception, you as an individual do not exist.  At conception, you are an individual."  You also need evidence of rational sentience coming from a zygote or an embryo.  "Moving" and "feeling pain" is not.  An ameoba moves.  Anything with even the simplest of nervous systems or its equivalent can feel "pain".  Trees that are consumed by herbivores only release certain chemicals during the time they're being chewed on.  These are the equivalent to "pain neurotransmitters".  So, every time you cut your grass ....

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 1:08PM #52
boodlebear
Posts: 1,053
[QUOTE=Daldianus;1042101]Thanks! Still also waiting for answer on this board though :)[/QUOTE]

I can't get a rise out of them over there.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 2:28PM #53
Vanillaangel
Posts: 334

apotter wrote:

I did answer his question. God tells us what His word is in the Bible. If you don't believe that the Bible is God's word, then you aren't going to listen to anything that any of us ,that do believe, it is God's word.


Oh I can just see more infractions piling up on my account as I type.
But....
To which Bible would you be referring!? Did you know that the closed canonical Scriptures now known as the "King James version" were compiled by a vote!?
Drafted from myths, letters, ancient scrolls, the first five books being stolen from the Jews Pentateuch.
That the Bible is errant unless one believes there to be unicorns in the world. That the earth actually has corners, making it a flat earth. That the sun revolves around our planet. That the stars and planets are suspended from the vault (roof) of heaven!?
That there is no fear of hell because god dwells there, so say the Psalms 139:8.
Or that Jesus is also Lucifer? (Revelation 22:16)

And if your god did know you before the womb, as you believe, then given how many spontaneous abortions (miscarriage) occur, that makes omniscience the foremost abortionist in the Universe. God gives, god takes away.

That makes abortion a sacrament! If god can do it, so can the bearer of the seed.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 2:44PM #54
Vanillaangel
Posts: 334

apotter wrote:

If it was God's choice for the baby to not be born, the mother would not be pregnant in the first place.


You really need to read the rules of posting in this particular forum. You're violating them, repeatedly with your references to god.

But since you went first.
If you really believe that, then what are spontaneous abortions!? (miscarriage) Gods example that he gives and then takes away!? Making him, that omniscient (all knowing) force, the preeminent abortionist in the universe and absolutely not pro-life.

By the way, how many children have you adopted?!

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 2:44PM #55
apotter
Posts: 17
I have lived in the south for 20 years.  I have spent countless hours in classrooms from kindergarten to high school while my sons were in school.  Children are taught to respect themselves from their parents.  I taught my sons to respect  themselves, their girlfriends, etc. . Disrespect is taught in  homes in the north, south, west and east.  It's no different here than up north where I grew up.  Teach all of our kids to respect themselves, and others.  Teach them not to have sex with someone other than your wife or husband, teach them to rejoice in the gift from God ,of a child, and we would no longer have abortions.
I answered the very  first question, to say that we are more concerned about the babies (who have no choice), than the mothers who abort their children (who do have a choice).  You misconstrue  the answer to suit your own needs.  It merely means that most pro-life people are ,rightfully so, more concerned about the lost life of the baby, than we are about someone going to jail.
In the long run, we will all have to answer for out own mistakes. I will have to answer for my own, and each one of you will have to answer for your own.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 3:02PM #56
Daldianus
Posts: 32,442

apotter wrote:

I have lived in the south for 20 years.  I have spent countless hours in classrooms from kindergarten to high school while my sons were in school.  Children are taught to respect themselves from their parents.  I taught my sons to respect  themselves, their girlfriends, etc. . Disrespect is taught in  homes in the north, south, west and east.  It's no different here than up north where I grew up.  Teach all of our kids to respect themselves, and others.  Teach them not to have sex with someone other than your wife or husband, teach them to rejoice in the gift from God ,of a child, and we would no longer have abortions.
I answered the very  first question, to say that we are more concerned about the babies (who have no choice), than the mothers who abort their children (who do have a choice).  You misconstrue  the answer to suit your own needs.  It merely means that most pro-life people are ,rightfully so, more concerned about the lost life of the baby, than we are about someone going to jail.
In the long run, we will all have to answer for out own mistakes. I will have to answer for my own, and each one of you will have to answer for your own.



Your forgot to answer my questions:

Not your concern? That's hypocritical.

So it's not your concern either whether the murderers of adult people get punished?

And if abortion = murder then should it be made illegal? Yes or No?

>> Feed your brain with awesome!
“After your death you will be what you were before your birth.” - Arthur Schopenhauer
"Eternity is very long, especially towards the end." - Woody Allen
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 3:09PM #57
apotter
Posts: 17
Why is it hypocritical of me to be more concerned with an innocent baby being murdered, than with an adult woman who is doing the murdering?  If your mother was stabbed by an intruder would it be hypocritical of you to be more concerned with your mother's well-being, versas the intruders feelings?   And for the 3rd time I have answered your question,  abortion is murder, so of course I think it should be illegal.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 3:14PM #58
Daldianus
Posts: 32,442

apotter wrote:

Why is it hypocritical of me to be more concerned with an innocent baby being murdered, than with an adult woman who is doing the murdering?  If your mother was stabbed by an intruder would it be hypocritical of you to be more concerned with your mother's well-being, versas the intruders feelings?   And for the 3rd time I have answered your question,  abortion is murder, so of course I think it should be illegal.



Ok, and what should the punishment then be for the women who abort?

>> Feed your brain with awesome!
“After your death you will be what you were before your birth.” - Arthur Schopenhauer
"Eternity is very long, especially towards the end." - Woody Allen
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 3:15PM #59
Daldianus
Posts: 32,442

Happy wrote:

Abortion is pre meditated first degree murder.

It took 400 years to stop slavery, but we did it and we will stop the insanity of women's rights.

Why were Susan Smith and Andrea Yates any more guilty?



Ok, and what should the punishment then be for the women who abort?

>> Feed your brain with awesome!
“After your death you will be what you were before your birth.” - Arthur Schopenhauer
"Eternity is very long, especially towards the end." - Woody Allen
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 12:09PM #60
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,505

apotter]Is abortion murder?  wrote:

Is abortion murder?  YES!   The reason that  most of the people on your video responded as they did, probably has a whole lot to do with the fact that we are not trying to be vindictive to woman who have abortions.


Translation:  "We don't want to be rude to the filthy murderess."

All we want is the murdering of babies stopped.


Then promote a change in culture.  I live in the South, where women are taught they need lovers to have self-worth.  Many think babies will make their boyfriends love them or that the baby will love them.  For those who only see babies as love toys or Social Security ... how is that respecting their lives?  Our constitution says that you are a citizen when BORN or naturalized.  You only "count" when you are born.  The bible prescribes a smaller punishment for men who cause miscarriages and don't hurt the woman than men who cause miscarriages and DO hurt the woman.  People who are born with "fetus in feto" (or however you spell it) ... basically, your identical twin is growing inside of you with varying levels of success ... are removed and we don't consider it murder when we cut out that skull and arms growing in your abdomen.

If it ever became illigal then, yes woman (and the "doctors" who perform the abortions) would probably go to prison, the same as if they killed a 7 year old or a 40 year old, but that is not really our concern.


Why bother with jail?  If you make it illegal, they'll just try it themselves.  Maiming and death is usually the result of DIY surgery.  But, hey, a woman's life doesn't HAVE to be respected!  I mean, we're already here, alive, sentient, etc -- but the parasitic life is WAY more important!

God tells us in the Bible, that He  knows us before we were born and that He has plans for us while we are in our mothers womb!


He knows us before we were born.  What does that mean?  He knew us a million years ago ... so what?  That doesn't mean we were alive in ANY form a million years ago.  I am going to get a degree in nursing (hopefully) ... in the future.  Just because I know it doesn't mean it exists NOW.  I would like to know when ensoulment occurs according to the bible.  I tried looking up "infants" and "child" ... but couldn't find what I was looking for.  It's entirely possible that it is not in there because the whole "separate soul" thing is more a Greco-Roman thing than a Jewish thing (hence, bodily resurrections).  Telling us that God says He knew us before we were born does NOT say we are ensouled at conception ... since, like I noted earlier, we were obviously not alive a million years ago, but God still knew us.  Our country views you as a person after birth (whether you came out naturally or had to be cut out prematurely) and psychologically, infants must be around 1-2 years old to pass the mirror test and otherwise develop a sense of self.


You can't get any clearer than that.


Clear and rational are two different things, apparently.


And for the poster who says that it's her right to do with her body what she wants, it's not your body that you're killing.  if it was your body, it would suicide.  It's your baby's body


No, it's not our body.  However, for all the respect you give a non-viable life, you sure don't respect ours -- and we are obviously alive, sentient, ensouled, etc.  You have no proof except a misinterpreted passage to prove ensoulment occurs at conception.  Yes, it's alive.  So is the E. coli in my intestines.  Yes, it's human.  So is a corpse.  I will become pro-life ONLY when I get more evidence for this assertion other than irrational and misinterpreted ones.  What you need is God to say "Okay, before conception, you as an individual do not exist.  At conception, you are an individual."  You also need evidence of rational sentience coming from a zygote or an embryo.  "Moving" and "feeling pain" is not.  An ameoba moves.  Anything with even the simplest of nervous systems or its equivalent can feel "pain".  Trees that are consumed by herbivores only release certain chemicals during the time they're being chewed on.  These are the equivalent to "pain neurotransmitters".  So, every time you cut your grass ....

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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