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Switch to Forum Live View Is abortion murder?
4 years ago  ::  Mar 14, 2010 - 8:11PM #801
Eliascomes
Posts: 861

 Basicly I'm just saying that abortion is murder, but society is the one that's pulling the trigger. The way society is designed is that we must have wealth in order to have children. And one of the reason women have an abortion is behind finance. But if every one has a family that will help with taking care of the child and or stability. That will decreased the abortion rate. But right now, it's even harder for almost anyone to have an child. because nothing is secured in these days. So the abortion rate is going to go up and also immorality.


There's tribes in Africa that doesn't have wealth but has opportunities to raised there own. Maybe we need to change our lifestyle to prevent murder.

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 14, 2010 - 10:12PM #802
Eliascomes
Posts: 861

Mar 14, 2010 -- 8:38PM, Covenant of Grace wrote:


Mar 14, 2010 -- 8:11PM, Eliascomes wrote:


 Basicly I'm just saying that abortion is murder, but society is the one that's pulling the trigger. The way society is designed is that we must have wealth in order to have children. And one of the reason women have an abortion is behind finance. But if every one has a family that will help with taking care of the child and or stability. That will decreased the abortion rate. But right now, it's even harder for almost anyone to have an child. because nothing is secured in these days. So the abortion rate is going to go up and also immorality.


There's tribes in Africa that doesn't have wealth but has opportunities to raised there own. Maybe we need to change our lifestyle to prevent murder.





Which tribes? Which nations? What's the mortality rate of the children? What are the health and poverty statistics?


One tribe is the Bush people, but there are many tribes in Africa which the governments in Africa will not take them out of their natural environment.


If society is to blame are you suggesting that society should increase its welfare and social programs to provide financial stability to mothers in poverty that do not have family or a support system in place?


 As that old African proverb says," It take a village to raised a child." We should never take someone out of their own habitat and bring them in ours, unless we'll have to support them. Even if they are killer whales.


What are the statistics for elective abortions made due to financing? Do you have a federal or state by state numbers?


 No,  But from the suicide rate since the economy dropping speaks for itself.


How is it harder for anyone to have a child? Do you mean literally or figuratively? I'd assume figuratively, but I don't understand how the pregnancy rate is affected by the economy. Are you suggesting people have less sex during economic hardship?


 No, they going have plenty of sex because of the plenty of time on their hands and there's stress, also. People is afraid of the unknown and no one don't know what's going to happen in the future. So it's hard to plan a family if you don't know the out come of things.


What is the immorality you speak of? Why is it going up? How do you measure it?




 People wouldn't care about murdering a fetus. Because no one wouldn't care about no one else. It's all about survival. In the early 1900's during the Great Depression. No one didn't care about saving the whales or anyone else.
.

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 23, 2010 - 2:02PM #803
minitaur
Posts: 2

The monkey wrench in all of this is that a woman has the RIGHT to her body and decide if she wants to deem the fetus as a human being or not, since a fetus cannot think or reason until well after birth.  what is missed religiously is the concept that a soul cannot be killed except by God's determination. Plers are saying there is thumb sucking, finger prints, can feel pain (at a certain point in the pregnancy), so the courts are trying to determine at what point in a pregnancy a woman would not be allowed to abort, yet the woman's rights are to be adhered to.  This is a real tough call for humans, but God can take a soul and re-insert it somewhere else if omniscience is a qulaity of God.

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4 years ago  ::  Dec 06, 2010 - 11:38AM #804
faith713
Posts: 3,892

Nov 23, 2010 -- 2:02PM, minitaur wrote:


The monkey wrench in all of this is that a woman has the RIGHT to her body and decide if she wants to deem the fetus as a human being or not, since a fetus cannot think or reason until well after birth.  what is missed religiously is the concept that a soul cannot be killed except by God's determination. Plers are saying there is thumb sucking, finger prints, can feel pain (at a certain point in the pregnancy), so the courts are trying to determine at what point in a pregnancy a woman would not be allowed to abort, yet the woman's rights are to be adhered to.  This is a real tough call for humans, but God can take a soul and re-insert it somewhere else if omniscience is a qulaity of God.





The fetus is a human being regardless of what the woman thinks. No, a mother should never have the "right" to intentionally kill her unborn son or daughter.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."--John14:6

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.-- John 3:16

"We love Him because He first loved us."--1 John 4:9-10

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear ... "
1 John 4:18
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4 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2010 - 5:30PM #805
Fyrelight
Posts: 14

Mar 14, 2010 -- 8:11PM, Eliascomes wrote:


 Basicly I'm just saying that abortion is murder, but society is the one that's pulling the trigger. The way society is designed is that we must have wealth in order to have children. And one of the reason women have an abortion is behind finance. But if every one has a family that will help with taking care of the child and or stability. That will decreased the abortion rate. But right now, it's even harder for almost anyone to have an child. because nothing is secured in these days. So the abortion rate is going to go up and also immorality.


There's tribes in Africa that doesn't have wealth but has opportunities to raised there own. Maybe we need to change our lifestyle to prevent murder.




NOTE: Though this comment quoted the above, it is ultimately directed all.


You are correct in saying that many choose abortion due to lack of finical support; however, it is much more complex than that, and a lot of women choose to receive an abortion for other reasons. Some used contraceptives or birth control, and ended up being in the one percent that got pregnant despite their efforts; others had unprotected sex  -many because they didn't know where to access protection; even a few that were using birth control that interacted with other medication (anti-biotic) or maybe accidentally broke the condom. The majority of these women chose to abort their fetus because they did not feel emotionally mature enough; were in an abusive relationship they were not ready or in a position to leave; did not have a partner or one that was ready/wanted to have kids; it - both the pregnancy and baby -  would interfere with their schooling, career, and future; and many of them terminated the fetus simply because they absolutely did not want to have a baby at that point in their lives, and for many women, they never want to have kids.


Then there are the women that chose to abort due to reasons of rape. As a sexual abuse survivor myself (who, luckily, never got pregnant), I can only begin to imagine the pain and trauma one would go through even during the pregnancy. The flashbacks, depression, stress, rage, and overall state of mind would be so much worse. Some would self-harm, fall prey to eating disorders, stop taking care of themselves properly, binge on unhealthy food, and even drink. None of which is, of course, healthy for the fetus or its mother. Stress alone during pregnancy has been proven to cause developmental delays, behavioral problems, health conditions, poor immune function, and even mental illness of the child's own (including anxiety, depression, Schizophrenia, and others). When you add the possibility of feelings of hatred towards the fetus, alcohol consumption, poor self-care, and dangerous activity, the baby is predisposed to a whole host of things. (This, of course, could also be applied to the first discussed reason.) If the mother keeps the child, then the chances of the experience of an emotionally absent or angry mother and an insecure attachment is likely. Even if you put a child through the adoption process, chances of a special needs child finding a home is relatively low, and if the baby escapes with no harm done to its development, the chances still aren't particularly high.


You also have the mothers who abort either due to a safety risk on their own life or a severe and untreatable medical condition in the fetus - one that would cause minimal-to-no cognitive function, extremely short life span, severe disfigurement, and no plausible chance of improvement. Most mothers, birth or adoptive, simply do not want that, and the child would have no quality of life. In the case of the risk being imposed on the mother, asking her to die for her fetus is not reasonable. Once again, especially since many of these women are young, they want a life - in this case, they want to live. That is understandable and, in fact, perfectly reasonable.


Thus, it is not as simple as you would suggest. Though finical support would help pregnant women who want to keep their baby, it in no way will eliminate abortions. There are some that just simply do not want to go through with the pregnancy, for a whole range of reasons, and I believe that it is to be respected. It is a myth that all - or even most - women feel devastated after an abortion. Though many do feel tormented by the choice, the most common feeling after an abortion is relief. The women who contribute to www.imnotsorry.net/ are living, breathing proof.


More so, making it unlawful to abort a fetus will only cause a host of other complications. Illegal abortions will happen - many unreported - and injury, infection, and death will occur. History shows this to us quite clearly. You will also then have to be in the position to punish these women for their now-illegal action. Every crime has a consequence, and abortion will be under the same standard. As many compare the act as equal to murder, then, logically, the punishment would have to be the same: anything ranging from fifteen years to life imprisonment (or, if you support, the death penalty). If a woman received multiple abortions, then - in a system that treated abortion as murder - they would be a serial killer, equal to Gacy, Dahlmer, and Manson. If the law was changed, this would be unavoidable consequence. Even if you consider abortion to be the fault of a broken society, that would not take the punishment away: those who steal food for their family still pay fines or spend time in prison; the mentally ill, who slipped through the cracks of the health system and commit a crime (including murder) while in a psychotic break, end up in our jails all the time; and so on.


If you feel abortion is wrong, fight it; but not through the law. Reach out to the women considering it. Chat with them; but don't preach to them. Offer your support no matter what they choose. Then, go into the schools and hand out condoms. Educate them on birth control. Talk to them, not down upon them. They'll have sex no matter what you say; however, your infuence comes from how they do it. That is how you prevent abortions: not through the law; not through your Holy Book; not through your preaching to them; but through respect, compassion, honesty, and willingness to go out and actually do the work - not just holding up a sign, the actual work.


As for Africa having less abortions, your comment shows little understanding of the situation there. People there, and those in similar places, are having just as much sex. In fact, due to their lack of finance and strong presence of Conservative Christian-based organizations (that don't hand out condoms), it is logical to conclude not only are they having just as much sex; but a lot more unprotected sex. Their HIV/AIDS epidemic is the most publicized expression of this. More so, abortion there is illegal in most places: therefore, there is absolutely NO data on how many abortions are actually being done, thus there is NO proof they are having less abortions. Just as the data here for abortions before it was legalized is scarce: compiled of estimates and guesses. Culture has nothing to do with. Sex is a biological desire beginning at puberty and, thus, every country, every culture, every group has the same complications arising from it.


In fact, recent studies have suggested that, though data is hard to gather, countries world wide - no matter their laws or cultures - have similar rates of abortion. Within the nations that have legalized it, abortion-realted morality rate has significantly dropped (in some places -  90%).


www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abort...


www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib_0599.html


www.religiousconsultation.org/News_Track...


www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_...


It should also be noted that many pro-life activists use pictures of fetuses aborted after the eighth week of gestation. In actuality, most abortions (62%) are done before that time period. Before that fetus has developed enough to feel pain (studies suggest anywhere between nine weeks - to the third trimester; but none below that).





With Love;


Erika





 


 edited by Justme333 to remove local guideline term violation

Moderated by Justme333 on Dec 09, 2010 - 07:36PM
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4 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2010 - 11:19AM #806
minitaur
Posts: 2

This is not a yea or nay issue.  Some women choose to get pregnant and then find that due to genetic incompatibility they will die along with the fetus if they go to term.  Forcing a woman/girl to go to term and then give up their child for adoption will find many of the children drug addicted, poorly nourished, having FAS, or living with a debilitating disease, and many with mothers unable to care for them due to financial reasons.  This will cause an influx of welfare recipients needing deep pocket health care paid for by Joe and Jane taxpayer (a system only designed to last till the depression ended!).


I don't want to hear from any Jehova Witness' because I have known some who have gone to doctors and hospitals for treatment, and another who let their child die.  This is something I can't take knowing that a childs life could have been saved, yet when it comes to their own health they will crack.


Life is more complex than just labeling abortion murder.  People who let their "LIVING, BREATHING, LAUGHING, WALKING, TALKING, THINKING, LOVING" child die for religious reasons - THAT'S MURDER!!!  Or those religious nuts who kill the infant because it isn't perfect, and blame the mother for sinning (those babies didn't even get a name, they are numbered).  God only makes perfect and healthy babies for those who don't sin?  PUH-LEASE!!!!!  Let's get out of the stone age first, then talk about abortion being murder! 

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2011 - 11:56AM #807
CometintheSky
Posts: 74

Jan 21, 2009 -- 12:28PM, Daldianus wrote:

Pro-lifers:

Is abortion murder?

If yes then should it be therefore made illegal?

If yes then what should be done to women who abort illegally?

Thank you.

Abortion is "First Degree Murder" of an unborn or partial birth human being, who had begun life as a living human being from the first stage of growth, which is a zygote at conception.

Abortion should be illegal.

Women who deliberately kill their unborn children, for whatever reason. should receive the dealth penalty. The Bible teaches, according to God, if a person kills another person, he/she would have to forfeit his/her own life.

The living unborn human being is a person who had begun his/her own life as a living cell at conception and then gone through the developing stages of growth to term and then the baby is born as a living human being.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 24, 2011 - 4:52PM #808
Rw7
Posts: 1

I believe any pre birth abortion is murder at any and all stages. I say pre birth because to abort means to leave, and when a baby leaves the womb and enters the world out side the mother, that is natural abortion the way it should be. The life of a humen being goes through many stages. Once conception takes place, life has already begun. If left to go through a full term pregnancy, the act of conception will become a human being in the form of a baby. Any time that process is terminated, I consider it murder. The stages of a human being are first conception, then comes the embryonic stage, next the forming human being is called a fetus. This is a medical term of that stage, those who have abotions like to refer to it as a fetus. For instance in the medical terminology, your mouth is called your stomat. The very instant it breathes the first breath on it's own, now we call it a baby human being. Next it is an infant, then a child, then unfortunately in some cases a teen ager, then a adolesent, then an adult. then a senior citizen, and last when the bain is dead and there is no electrical impulse to the SA node in the heart to keep it pumping, the human being has reached the end of their life on earth, and now they are deceased or a corpse. So what you call the forming of the human being at a certain stage, is irrelevent, and therefore I feel abotion is definitely murder. Of course I am pro-life, but will not force my belief on any body. Those who have an abortion have commited muredr, and if nothing else will have to answer to God. Some day get down on your hands and knees and thank the Lord that your parents did not abort you prematurly!

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 24, 2011 - 7:44PM #809
faith713
Posts: 3,892

Dec 11, 2010 -- 11:19AM, minitaur wrote:


This is not a yea or nay issue.  Some women choose to get pregnant and then find that due to genetic incompatibility they will die along with the fetus if they go to term.  Forcing a woman/girl to go to term and then give up their child for adoption will find many of the children drug addicted, poorly nourished, having FAS, or living with a debilitating disease, and many with mothers unable to care for them due to financial reasons.  This will cause an influx of welfare recipients needing deep pocket health care paid for by Joe and Jane taxpayer (a system only designed to last till the depression ended!).


I don't want to hear from any Jehova Witness' because I have known some who have gone to doctors and hospitals for treatment, and another who let their child die.  This is something I can't take knowing that a childs life could have been saved, yet when it comes to their own health they will crack.


Life is more complex than just labeling abortion murder.  People who let their "LIVING, BREATHING, LAUGHING, WALKING, TALKING, THINKING, LOVING" child die for religious reasons - THAT'S MURDER!!!  Or those religious nuts who kill the infant because it isn't perfect, and blame the mother for sinning (those babies didn't even get a name, they are numbered).  God only makes perfect and healthy babies for those who don't sin?  PUH-LEASE!!!!!  Let's get out of the stone age first, then talk about abortion being murder! 




I would rather have my tax dollars helping mothers rather than going to killing their children.


My children and I were on welfare for a few years, now all of us give back triple to society what we used.


No, we shouldn't kill anyone because we think they are not perfect or unwanted. That is insane, just like abortion.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."--John14:6

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.-- John 3:16

"We love Him because He first loved us."--1 John 4:9-10

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear ... "
1 John 4:18
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2011 - 5:33PM #810
Nonchristianheaven
Posts: 147

Isn't this an oxymoron: "I believe abortion is murder, my son just joined the military."

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