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Switch to Forum Live View The reason for all animal cruelty and killing by humans
10 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2008 - 2:37PM #31
SkyWalker53
Posts: 2,235
[QUOTE=Gandalf_Parker;364891]Bingo. It does not help her cause.
It damages the subject to take such an extreme stance so loudly. She actually turns people away from the "debate" side of this forum.[/QUOTE]

you know what I love about the truth...it doesn't matter how you present it, it's still the truth.
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2008 - 2:41PM #32
SkyWalker53
Posts: 2,235
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;364986]Once again, the ironic thing is, I have no beef with Sky's basic premise. Violence and cruelty are primarily driven by male dominance and the equality -- true equality -- of women and a greater balance between the masculine and feminine energies will greatly curb the violence and suffering in this world.. for both humans and animals.

Stuff like what John T posted misses the point, IMO. Those are cases of women acting like men in order to attain "equality" in a patriarchy. You know, the old "if you can't beat them, join them" philosophy.

Here in the industrial West, we see the same thing. Women become a "success" in the cut-throat, back-stabbing business world by taking on or playing up masculine characteristics. 

Yes there ARE women who natrually enjoy a good fight. We have some examples of that on this board.. in our resident women martial artists. There's nothing wrong with that.. just like there's nothing wrong with the few men who actually excell in nurturing roles -- like running a pre-school day care.

But, IMO, the fact still stands that MOST women really don't have the temperment for the boxing ring and MOST men don't really have the temperment to take care of a room full of infants and toddlers.


I think I've brought this up in this forum before. But long ago on another debate board (I'm not sure it was even on B'net) I witnessed a discussion on gender equality between a few White women and a Black woman. The Black woman brought up something I thought was very profound. To paraphrase her, "Generally speaking, White women seem to seek equality by striving to be like men and have all the things men have, while Black women strive not to quit being women, but to get due respect AS women."

So, anyway, when women gain equality AS women.. and not just trying to be men with breasts because that's what the male-dominated system expects of them... I think we will see a signifigant drop in violence and brutality.[/QUOTE]

wow look at that. MM gets it! (but BH, a female, thinks she is a male with breasts). Now if we can only get MM to see his own male gender violence that he conducts by choosing to shoot at animals and realize where the desire to shoot at deer comes from so that he may choose to oppose it.
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2008 - 4:52PM #33
becca97
Posts: 2,562
the key is choice IE not forcing males or females tofit any gender roles (social constructs) they do not naturally fit into as individuals.

Most males and females fit into neither sterotype and that is i think the largest problem with radical feminism and some folks interpretation of it, it is all based on assumptions and generlisations rather than the complexities and nuances.
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2008 - 5:03PM #34
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;364986]Here in the industrial West, we see the same thing. Women become a "success" in the cut-throat, back-stabbing business world by taking on or playing up masculine characteristics. 

Yes there ARE women who natrually enjoy a good fight. We have some examples of that on this board.. in our resident women martial artists. There's nothing wrong with that.. just like there's nothing wrong with the few men who actually excell in nurturing roles -- like running a pre-school day care.



that's nice - you admit that not all women fit the traditional mold.  But then you say:

I witnessed a discussion on gender equality between a few White women and a Black woman. The Black woman brought up something I thought was very profound. To paraphrase her, "Generally speaking, White women seem to seek equality by striving to be like men and have all the things men have, while Black women strive not to quit being women, but to get due respect AS women."



which plays into sky's claim that any woman who dosen't fit the traditional mold is simply trying to join the patriarchy.  It's as though people are willing to admit that non-stereotypical women exist, but then dismiss them with a pat on the head as 'deviant' or deluded.  I have never claimed that men, in general, are not more agressive than women, in general; what I want recognition for is that there is nothing unnatural, deluded, or deviant about a man who likes children or a woman who likes hunting.

Also, something important that the quote above dosen't mention is that the social expecatations of black women, as women, and the social expectations of white women, as women, are not the same.  Sojourner Truth's most famous speech shows the cultural divide that the women of today have come from:

  Well, children, where there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that 'twixt the Negroes of the South and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this here talking about?
That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?

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10 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2008 - 5:05PM #35
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754
[QUOTE=becca97;366094]the key is choice IE not forcing males or females tofit any gender roles (social constructs) they do not naturally fit into as individuals.

Most males and females fit into neither sterotype and that is i think the largest problem with radical feminism and some folks interpretation of it, it is all based on assumptions and generlisations rather than the complexities and nuances.[/QUOTE]

qft.

thank heavens for the third wave.
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2008 - 6:01PM #36
Chai008
Posts: 1,056
[QUOTE=SkyWalker53;364015]You've never met a neutered male so how would you know you wouldn't like a non-violent male? I know that my male cats actually became extremely sweet and more lovable after being neutered. They stopped roaming, fighting, territorial marking, and all sorts of anti-social behavior. They had one track minds driven by testosterone. Now I can actually get to know the real them behind the hormone.[/QUOTE]

I have a non violent male for a husband but thanks. He's never been violent towards me of my kids or our pets. What funny is my ex who wasn't a hunter was extremely violent. Also you do know that men are not cats right. You seem to have a very low opinion of men. I think this is funny Sky who thinks that women should have complete control over their bodies thinks that males should be forcefully "nutered".
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2008 - 8:29PM #37
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782
No, no, BHR... I think you're still missing the point.

Womens' "traditional roles" are just another part of partiarchy, are they not?

I'm talking moving beyond all that.. completely.. not an "equality" that involves emastulating men or trying to turn women into men.. so they can simply prepetuate the partiarchy and male-dominated paradigm.

Women sharing the power in the coporate boardroom because there happens to be an equal -- if not even greater -- number of skirts in the room does nothing to achive real equality for women, IMO.. because they are still turning the cogs of a machine invented in and running on the concepts of a male-dominated paradigm.

I'm saying an equality based on equal amounts of masculine and feminine energy going into the molding of society and the institutions themselves. An actual equality.. where a women's perspective isn't just brought into the existing system.. but is involved in building that system... from the ground up. I'm talking a whole NEW paradigm.. maybe one in which the corporate boardroom as we know it doesn't even exist.. or exists in a form we can't yet fathom.

Since that's never happened, we probably have a hard time concieving what it would even look like. You have to think a whole new world, here BHR....
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 19, 2008 - 5:05AM #38
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;366585]I'm saying an equality based on equal amounts of masculine and feminine energy going into the molding of society and the institutions themselves. An actual equality.. where a women's perspective isn't just brought into the existing system.. but is involved in building that system... from the ground up. I'm talking a whole NEW paradigm.. maybe one in which the corporate boardroom as we know it doesn't even exist.. or exists in a form we can't yet fathom.[/QUOTE]

That's an interesting idea; I'm not a daoist, and do not believe in the existence of separate male and female energies any more than I believe in gods.  I think I see what your point is, but I get incredibly frustrated with the idea that 'all women are imbued with female energy and are therefore x in personality, and all men are imbued with male energy and are therefore y in personality.' If you do want to think of it in terms of separate energies, we are all made up of a mixture of the two, male and female alike; males in general tend to have more of one type, females of another, but like our physical heights saying 'men are taller than women' is a gross oversimplification and leaves tall women and short men feeling like mutants.

Essentialism traps people in stereotyped roles whether they are actually suited for it or not.  I believe that there are people who thrive as homemakers; most of them are women, but some of them are men.  I believe also that there are people who thrive on the adversity of courtroom litigation; again, most of them are men, but some of them are women.  Neither role is inherently evil.  Both roles are 'unbalanced,' if you want to see them that way, but that's not necessarily a bad thing; what's bad is that (currently) the roles that men tend to thrive in are generally better paying and therefore confer more power.

People say that H. Clinton is being too masculine, that she's a B****, etc - but that's simply what a person has to do to survive in politics.  She's a good politician.  Why is a woman who enters a man's field, and does it well, seen as somehow twisted, 'unfeminine,' or aberant? 

Why is a man who talks about unity, diplomacy, and reconciliation seen as wimpy or 'unmasculine'? 

Forget rebuilding the world; why can't we just let people be who they are without telling them who they should be?  Men, at least, are assumed to be chosing homemaking due to their own natural preference when they go that way; why are women who choose the courtroom, the boxing ring, or the corporation seen as some sort of latter-day gold diggers trying to 'pass' as men?
(this can work to the male homemaker's disadvantage, to the extent that an observer feels that an essentially caretaking male is somehow a lower life form).
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 19, 2008 - 6:40AM #39
becca97
Posts: 2,562
errm actualy that idea of femine and masculine being about men and women is a false one daoism is not about sexim at all (as those who practice it properly know) one of the teachings/principles of the yin-yang principle is about yin-yang being in harmony as illustrated by this image (it is also the guiding principle(s) behind qi gong and tai chi)

So that view i voiced of men and women being free from any sterotypes patriarchal or feminism or anythign in between and being allowed to just do whatever comes naturally to the individual person (male or female) comes from daoism (or dao cultivation in my case).

For more on daoism/dao cultivation see http://truetao.org/enter.htm

beccaxx
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 19, 2008 - 7:48AM #40
SkyWalker53
Posts: 2,235
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;366585]No, no, BHR... I think you're still missing the point.

Womens' "traditional roles" are just another part of partiarchy, are they not?

I'm talking moving beyond all that.. completely.. not an "equality" that involves emastulating men or trying to turn women into men.. so they can simply prepetuate the partiarchy and male-dominated paradigm.

Women sharing the power in the coporate boardroom because there happens to be an equal -- if not even greater -- number of skirts in the room does nothing to achive real equality for women, IMO.. because they are still turning the cogs of a machine invented in and running on the concepts of a male-dominated paradigm.

I'm saying an equality based on equal amounts of masculine and feminine energy going into the molding of society and the institutions themselves. An actual equality.. where a women's perspective isn't just brought into the existing system.. but is involved in building that system... from the ground up. I'm talking a whole NEW paradigm.. maybe one in which the corporate boardroom as we know it doesn't even exist.. or exists in a form we can't yet fathom.

Since that's never happened, we probably have a hard time concieving what it would even look like. You have to think a whole new world, here BHR....[/QUOTE]

I can't believe it, mm really gets it!.... and BH is still caught up in her subjective image of herself.
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