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Switch to Forum Live View Do these people even deserve to live?
6 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 12:44AM #21
mountain_man
Posts: 38,097

bubbysmommy wrote:

They devalue their own lives when they choose to murder an innocent.


No, that is your devaluation of their life.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 6:47AM #22
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[COLOR="Purple"]This happens to be your own opinion, just as I have my own opinion on this matter. I just happen yo believe that anyone that kills another not only has no regard for other life, but they have no regard for their own.  [/COLOR]
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 10:01AM #23
becca97
Posts: 2,562
[QUOTE=RiverMoonlady;378976]Wouldn't you be more than a little bit bothered if one of these people lived next door to you???  They could be there and you wouldn't even know their history.[/QUOTE]

If they were in prison (as all of the above have been and remained or remain until they died or will do so until their deaths whether from the DP or natural causes) then where is the need to be bothered?

Not supporting the DP is a long way removed from suggesting we let convicted dangerous people out onto societies streets: Hindley and Brady, Fred and Rose West, Shipman, all in the UK a country currently without the DP though it is increasingly likley with the new rise of new rightism it may return in the future, all of these people were long term lifers without any possibility of parole.


Indeed if one is really concerned about serial killer, multiple killers and rapists living next door the real worry is the unconvicted ones as serial killers can have random triggers, blondes, brunnetts men women, tall short, slim fat etc multiple killers often have psychosis that can strike at anytime and rapists are normally those you know family, friend, neighbour.

I personaly prefer not to live in fear; been raped got over it; came dam close to being killed (don't recomend it) got over that also.

So no if any of the above or similar were in prison near me i'd not be bothered and the likelyhood of those convicted of such crimes being released is so small it is not worth letting fear take a hold.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 11:17AM #24
mountain_man
Posts: 38,097

bubbysmommy wrote:

This happens to be your own opinion,


So, are you saying that what you said is a fact but what I said is just an opinion? I've never understood the reason anyone would ever say "this happens to be your own opinion." The statement makes absolutely no sense and is only used to dismiss whatever the other person has to say.

just as I have my own opinion on this matter. I just happen yo believe that anyone that kills another not only has no regard for other life, but they have no regard for their own. 


You are welcome to hold that opinion all you want. It is apparent that you have not talked to anyone on death row. If they have no regard for their own life, why do they fight so hard not to be murdered by the state? Apparently they do not want to die. And you're making the mistake of lumping all "murderers" in the same group. I guess that's why it's just your opinion and not a fact.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 11:21AM #25
mountain_man
Posts: 38,097

becca97 wrote:

.....So no if any of the above or similar were in prison near me i'd not be bothered and the likelyhood of those convicted of such crimes being released is so small it is not worth letting fear take a hold.


What most people fail to learn about this topic is that murderers have one of the lowest rates of recidivism around. One is more likely to be murdered by a drug dealer moving in next door than a person paroled after serving a long prison sentence for murder.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 12:05PM #26
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[QUOTE=mountain_man;381651]So, are you saying that what you said is a fact but what I said is just an opinion? I've never understood the reason anyone would ever say "this happens to be your own opinion." The statement makes absolutely no sense and is only used to dismiss whatever the other person has to say

You are welcome to hold that opinion all you want. It is apparent that you have not talked to anyone on death row. If they have no regard for their own life, why do they fight so hard not to be murdered by the state? Apparently they do not want to die. And you're making the mistake of lumping all "murderers" in the same group. I guess that's why it's just your opinion and not a fact.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Blue"][FONT="Century Gothic"]Let me see if I can clear this up for you. EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinions. An opinion does not have to be rooted in fact It is simply the way that a person feels about something. You nor I have to understand it, it is based in emotion. Believe me, I have known at least one man on death row. This man should have been killed when he was caught. I firmly believe that there are those that cannot be saved. These monsters should not be clogging the appeals courts for those that may actually be innocent. I do not want to see an innocent executed, but I do want the murdering monsters like Jerry Allard executed. They should be killed when they are caught. There was never any question as to his guilt. He never showed a bit of remorse for what he did.I have told this story several times, if you are truly interested in why I feel this way, go back & read it. I will tell you this. I was against the DP until this happened. He didn't just kill anyone. He murdered an innocent 2yr old child & his ex wife. These types of killers are beyond our ability to help them. They need to be put down just like any other vicious animal. You wouldn't bat an eye at putting down a dog that killed a child. Same thing here. It is better for everyone. Society is better without them.   [/FONT][/COLOR]
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 1:00PM #27
becca97
Posts: 2,562
[QUOTE=RiverMoonlady;381950]Becca97, I wasn't talking about people in prison.  I was referring to those who are released on parole, which does happen to those who have committed murder and/or rape.



Nice of you to let us know you were changing the focus from serial killers et al to potential parolees.

It would depend entirly on the individual concerned and as the chance of dangerous convicts receiving parole is actualy slim (does occur but not as often as is feared) i'm not going to loose any sleep over maybe's and what ifs.

People get all bent out of shape about child molesters and sex offenders in their neighborhoods, but who gets notified if a murderer is released?  It's not that I am personally afraid of these people.  I have family and friends and I want them all to have long, good lives.[/QUOTE]

We all wish our friends and family long happy lives HOWEVER giving into fear and inventing problems is nonsensical.

Would i welcome with open arms a convicted rapist or murderer? Probably not but until/unless it occurs i'm not about to let the potential get in the way of rationality.

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6 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 1:24PM #28
mountain_man
Posts: 38,097

bubbysmommy wrote:

Let me see if I can clear this up for you. EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinions.


I don't believe I have ever said otherwise, so trying to accuse me of such a statement makes no sense.

An opinion does not have to be rooted in fact It is simply the way that a person feels about something.


Why are you making the arrogant assumption I do not know that already?

You nor I have to understand it, it is based in emotion.


Duh? I still do not understand why you summarily dismissed what I said as an "opinion."

Believe me, I have known at least one man on death row. This man should have been killed when he was caught. I firmly believe that there are those that cannot be saved.


Well.... that's just your opinion.

I cannot place such a low value on a human life just because the person did not act in a way I believe they must. I could never place an extrinsic value on human life.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 1:30PM #29
mountain_man
Posts: 38,097

RiverMoonlady wrote:

Becca97, I wasn't talking about people in prison.  I was referring to those who are released on parole, which does happen to those who have committed murder and/or rape.


You can't mix the crimes of rape and murder (unless the guy did both in which case he wouldn't be getting out anyway.) They have two different profiles and the murderer has a lower recidivism rate which is in the very low percentiles. You're more likely to be murdered by a released drug user than a paroled murderer.

People get all bent out of shape about child molesters and sex offenders in their neighborhoods, but who gets notified if a murderer is released?  It's not that I am personally afraid of these people.  I have family and friends and I want them all to have long, good lives.


It's strange that many people refuse to realize that the person you hug at the front door is more likely to molest your children than a paroled sex offender.

And as someone already pointed out, many of those convicted murderers are not likely to get out of prison. Many that do get out will be so old they don't have enough strength to pull the trigger.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 3:09PM #30
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[COLOR="Navy"][FONT="Georgia"]If anyone here is acting in an arrogant manner, it is you Dave. You are trying to force your own personal agenda. You keep saying that the things that you are telling us are not your opinion. They most certainly are. You have given no "facts" to back up ANYTHING that you have said. So, until you do, these statements are merely your own opinions, just as what I am trying to say is. God himself is the only one that could EVER change my mind about the DP. Even at that He would have to do it personally. Not through some arrogant man like yourself. Have you ever had to attend the funeral of a murder victim? Have you ever had to look 2 young boys in the face & tell them that yes, what they saw was real. Their daddy killed their mommy & baby sister? Have you ever had to deal with anything like this? Until you have & I hope like hades that you never do, do not presume to tell me that a killer like Jerry Allard has the same intrinsic value placed on his life as those that he killed. Rachel (the 2yr old that he murdered) will never grow up, she will never have her first date, or experience the heartbreak of her first breakup. There are hundreds of thousands of things that this baby will never be able to do. Simply because her father chose to slit her throat & allow her to drown in her own blood. Yet, you are trying to convince me that this monster's life has as much meaning as hers? BULL! At this point I am angry. I apologize for being so angry, but these kids & their mother deserved more than that & I absolutely believe that their lives definitely had more meaning than that monster that killed them & left 2 small boys to pick up the pieces. [/FONT][/COLOR]
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