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6 years ago  ::  Mar 08, 2008 - 6:54PM #11
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,760
Dar, I've not seen very many vultures or buzzards in the wild. But they are really awesome birds.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 08, 2008 - 7:01PM #12
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,760
Speaking of wildlife issues, if any of you guys get a chance, read up on the removal of gray wolves from the endangred species list in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming.

Now, those states have been my home turf for my whole life, and this is an issue I have a lot of interest in and strong feelings about. I'll keep my opinons to myself for now, but I think it's an important issue people should know about.

Very briefly, about 60 wolves were re-introduced to the Yellowstone area in 1995-96. They have done very well, but have remained a very controversial species. The plan all along was to de-list the wolves and hand the managment of them over to the states as soon as they reached numbers deemed acceptable for long-term recovery. There are now about 1,500 wolves  -- roughly evenly distributed between the three states.

Montana's managment plan is probably the most liberal and wolf-friendly, Idaho's is in between, and Wyoming's is more reactionary. Nevertheless, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service agreed to accept all three states' plans and is moving ahead with the delisting. So, of course, the whole controversy is blowing up all over again.


Anyway, look it up and read about it, fascinating subject.. I'd love to discuss it with you guys.

(And no, even after all this time, I've not yet seen or heard any wolves myself.  I hope that changes soon!)
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 08, 2008 - 8:19PM #13
cinthia_29
Posts: 519
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;342265]Speaking of wildlife issues, if any of you guys get a chance, read up on the removal of gray wolves from the endangred species list in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming.

Now, those states have been my home turf for my whole life, and this is an issue I have a lot of interest in and strong feelings about. I'll keep my opinons to myself for now, but I think it's an important issue people should know about.

Very briefly, about 60 wolves were re-introduced to the Yellowstone area in 1995-96. They have done very well, but have remained a very controversial species. The plan all along was to de-list the wolves and hand the managment of them over to the states as soon as they reached numbers deemed acceptable for long-term recovery. There are now about 1,500 wolves  -- roughly evenly distributed between the three states.

Montana's managment plan is probably the most liberal and wolf-friendly, Idaho's is in between, and Wyoming's is more reactionary. Nevertheless, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service agreed to accept all three states' plans and is moving ahead with the delisting. So, of course, the whole controversy is blowing up all over again.


Anyway, look it up and read about it, fascinating subject.. I'd love to discuss it with you guys.

(And no, even after all this time, I've not yet seen or heard any wolves myself.  I hope that changes soon!)[/QUOTE]

Seem to me that 1,500 is still not very many to be taking them off the endangred species list.  I am getting off work in soon but have another 12 hour day tommorow so I will look into it then.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 08, 2008 - 8:20PM #14
cinthia_29
Posts: 519
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;342238]Yeah, that's actually a little female. My newest dog. Just turned a year old. As far as breed, she is a "nobody really knows what" crossed with a "God only knows what that is."
For the sake of simplicity, I just tell people she's the "Rat Dog."

She's one of the smaller dogs I've ever had. Most of my dogs have been big hunting dogs... 60-70 pounds or more. This little one is about only 20 pounds. But smart as hell and a lot of fun. I also have the same labrador/mutt cross I've had for about eight years. (I think his pic is still posted with my profile.

Oh, and I have a little black cat named Sebastian. And yes, Sebastian is a female (spayed, and current on her shots, of course, because I let her outside sometimes.)  I know that's a "boy's" name... but it fits her, and it has stuck.[/QUOTE]

Hunting dogs, I always wanted a bloodhound.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2008 - 12:43PM #15
cinthia_29
Posts: 519
""Wolves were listed as endangered in 1974, and the government has spent more than $27 million on recovery efforts in the Northern Rockies.""

Amazing they spent all this money on recovery and now they are taking them off the endangered species list and are going to let people hunt them. Now here's where I have a problem. I am not aginst hunting if you are going to hunt and eat what you kill. But why hunt these wolves except for the fact that they are generally not well liked by people? So now what they are going to hunt them to near extinction again so the government has to step in yet again protect them?
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2008 - 3:15PM #16
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,760
[QUOTE=cinthia_29;343539]""Wolves were listed as endangered in 1974, and the government has spent more than $27 million on recovery efforts in the Northern Rockies.""

Amazing they spent all this money on recovery and now they are taking them off the endangered species list and are going to let people hunt them. Now here's where I have a problem. I am not aginst hunting if you are going to hunt and eat what you kill. But why hunt these wolves except for the fact that they are generally not well liked by people? So now what they are going to hunt them to near extinction again so the government has to step in yet again protect them?[/QUOTE]

Well, it's a bit more complicated than that. I'm very much pro-wolf. But I'm also less than happy with the job much of the press has done covering the issue. Many news stories I've read over-simplify many aspects of it.

Wolves are generally well-liked by a lot of people. Including many residents in the three states and many hunters, like me. As is usually the case, the most obnoxious loud mouths get the press... LOL. That being said, overall, the hunting fraternity is anti-wolf.. and for all the wrong reasons. That's something I've been debating with other hunters about on other blogs, and will continue to do so. The best way to change that ignorance is from within, IMO.

Even so, some people do have legitimate concern about the wolves. Think of it from a rancher's perspective. Wouldn't you be upset if some of your livestock was being killed?

Be that as it may, wolves are a very resiliant species. A little bit of managed sport hunting isn't going to hurt them. I've had phone conversations with both Ed Bangs, the USFWS's wolf program leader and (I think her first name is Marilyn) Sims -- who will be heading up Montana's wolf managment program.

The both pretty much say the same thing. Wolves adapt pretty well to losses. Sims pointed out that even if the "alpaha" animals are killed, the rest of the pack can and will adjust. Because think about it, wolves don't live all that long in nature anyway, and because of accidents, disease and countless other hazards, the possiblity of the alpha animals being killed is always there anyway. So, it stands to reason that wolf packs in order to have succeded as a species have to have mechanims in place to deal with the loss of any of of the members, even the alphas.

I think I said before I don't have any personal desire to hunt wolves, but I don't have anything against it, IF it is done in a fair, controlled manner. Like any other species, wolves will soon learn and adjust, and evade all but the best hunters.

There's also been problems in other areas, Alaska and Canada, with wolves becoming over-habituated to people and losing their fear. Wolves have killed pet dogs right in front of their owners. There's at least one case in Alaska where forensic examiners are almost certain a young man found dead up there was killed by wolves.

Now, a wolf attacking people, especially a child, down here would give the strident anti-wolf forces the ammunition they've just been dreaming about to push through full-scale wolf extermination plans. So, it's in the best interest of the wolves, IMO, for them to develop a healthy fear of people. Sport hunting is one way to do that.

Long and the short of it, the wolf hunts will be on limited quotas.. not aimed at wholesale slaughter of the wolves. As I said, I'm not to happy about some hunters having this vengeful regard for wolves and thinking "yeah, I can't wait to get a tag and go shoot one of those bastards!" But that's a wrong-headed philosphical problem that needs to be cleaned up from within the hunting community, IMO.

Anyway, I'm far from knowing everything there is to know about this issue. But I have had direct conversations with some of the people involved and have tried reading up on it from all sides. So, I'm happy to share what I do know.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2008 - 4:04PM #17
grumblypegs
Posts: 86
I haven't personally heard much about trouble with wolves in Canada.  Around where I live the issue is more with coyotes coming into town at night and killing domestic pets.  I have heard that there is some evidence that coyotes and wolves are inter-breeding in certain areas of Canada (eastern provinces, especially northern Ontario), and that these intermediate "super-coyotes" are comparatively more aggressive in behavior.

Wolves are wonderful animals.  I would not support "sport" hunting of wolves, but I suppose there is a case to be made for allowing ranchers to defend their cattle.  The ranchers I know are surprisingly tolerant of a little loss here and there to bears or cougars.  Not many wolves around here to speak of, sadly.   

Wolves are pretty smart about learning territorial boundaries.  Maybe a way could be devised to mark (in a way that wolves understood) the edges of ranches and other places where people don't want wolves to be.  Shooting wolves seems like a strategy of last resort.

I far rather see nature find its own balance and have plenty of wild open spaces for animals to live their own lives.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2008 - 4:05PM #18
cinthia_29
Posts: 519
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;343857]Well, it's a bit more complicated than that. I'm very much pro-wolf. But I'm also less than happy with the job much of the press has done covering the issue. Many news stories I've read over-simplify many aspects of it.

Wolves are generally well-liked by a lot of people. Including many residents in the three states and many hunters, like me. As is usually the case, the most obnoxious loud mouths get the press... LOL. That being said, overall, the hunting fraternity is anti-wolf.. and for all the wrong reasons. That's something I've been debating with other hunters about on other blogs, and will continue to do so. The best way to change that ignorance is from within, IMO.

Even so, some people do have legitimate concern about the wolves. Think of it from a rancher's perspective. Wouldn't you be upset if some of your livestock was being killed?

Be that as it may, wolves are a very resiliant species. A little bit of managed sport hunting isn't going to hurt them. I've had phone conversations with both Ed Bangs, the USFWS's wolf program leader and (I think her first name is Marilyn) Sims -- who will be heading up Montana's wolf managment program.

The both pretty much say the same thing. Wolves adapt pretty well to losses. Sims pointed out that even if the "alpaha" animals are killed, the rest of the pack can and will adjust. Because think about it, wolves don't live all that long in nature anyway, and because of accidents, disease and countless other hazards, the possiblity of the alpha animals being killed is always there anyway. So, it stands to reason that wolf packs in order to have succeded as a species have to have mechanims in place to deal with the loss of any of of the members, even the alphas.

I think I said before I don't have any personal desire to hunt wolves, but I don't have anything against it, IF it is done in a fair, controlled manner. Like any other species, wolves will soon learn and adjust, and evade all but the best hunters.

There's also been problems in other areas, Alaska and Canada, with wolves becoming over-habituated to people and losing their fear. Wolves have killed pet dogs right in front of their owners. There's at least one case in Alaska where forensic examiners are almost certain a young man found dead up there was killed by wolves.

Now, a wolf attacking people, especially a child, down here would give the strident anti-wolf forces the ammunition they've just been dreaming about to push through full-scale wolf extermination plans. So, it's in the best interest of the wolves, IMO, for them to develop a healthy fear of people. Sport hunting is one way to do that.

Long and the short of it, the wolf hunts will be on limited quotas.. not aimed at wholesale slaughter of the wolves. As I said, I'm not to happy about some hunters having this vengeful regard for wolves and thinking "yeah, I can't wait to get a tag and go shoot one of those bastards!" But that's a wrong-headed philosphical problem that needs to be cleaned up from within the hunting community, IMO.

Anyway, I'm far from knowing everything there is to know about this issue. But I have had direct conversations with some of the people involved and have tried reading up on it from all sides. So, I'm happy to share what I do know.[/QUOTE]

I never knew that they were planning to take them off the endangered species list until your post yesterday. I don't know much about wolves so I do have a question. You said that these wolves are attacking dogs in front of their owners and possibly humans as well. Do you think that a wolf that has not had close contact with humans would still attack a dog with a human standing with it, of possibly attack a human, or do you think these incidents are directly related to these animals sharing the same environment with humans so now they have no fear of huamns? In any case a lot of people worked very hard to repopulate this species and it would be a shame if the were hunted into extinction. I hope that this doesn't come to that, if they can manage these hunts to where that doesn't happen then great. Personally like I said, I am not going to kill anything that I wouldn't eat. But we also do not need them to become so overpopulated that they become a serious threat to humans.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2008 - 4:06PM #19
grumblypegs
Posts: 86
[QUOTE]Anyway, I'm far from knowing everything there is to know about this issue. But I have had direct conversations with some of the people involved and have tried reading up on it from all sides. So, I'm happy to share what I do know[/QUOTE]. ~~MM

Sure.  What sort of stuff do you have?
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2008 - 4:20PM #20
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,760
[QUOTE=grumblypegs;343972]I haven't personally heard much about trouble with wolves in Canada.  Around where I live the issue is more with coyotes coming into town at night and killing domestic pets.  I have heard that there is some evidence that coyotes and wolves are inter-breeding in certain areas of Canada (eastern provinces, especially northern Ontario), and that these intermediate "super-coyotes" are comparatively more aggressive in behavior.

Wolves are wonderful animals.  I would not support "sport" hunting of wolves, but I suppose there is a case to be made for allowing ranchers to defend their cattle.  The ranchers I know are surprisingly tolerant of a little loss here and there to bears or cougars.  Not many wolves around here to speak of, sadly.   

Wolves are pretty smart about learning territorial boundaries.  Maybe a way could be devised to mark (in a way that wolves understood) the edges of ranches and other places where people don't want wolves to be.  Shooting wolves seems like a strategy of last resort.

I far rather see nature find its own balance and have plenty of wild open spaces for animals to live their own lives.[/QUOTE]


Grumbly, the problem is, there's not as much "wild open spaces" as there used to be.
Wolves are:
A: Very resiliant and prolific. The fact that they went from about 60 animals in 1995-96 to over 1,500 now should tell you that.
B: Wolves range... a lot.

The Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem into which the wolves were reintroduced is, in essense, an island of wild country surrounded on all sides by settled or semi-settled land. It's just not practical for wolves to go without restriction, again, given their tendancy to reproduce and range as much as they do.
SOME form of control is needed. That's just a fact. Prudent, tightly regulated sport hunting can work, IMO.
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