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6 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2008 - 1:30PM #1
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]In my opinion, not ALL life should be valued. If you kill someone in cold blood, you place yourself on the level of an animal that kills without regard for life. In doing this, it is the killer that devalues his own life, not those of us that believe the DP should be kept intact. I am not saying that all those that kill should be given the DP. I honestly believe that it should be reserved for those that are guilty beyond ANY doubt of killing a truly innocent person.  [/COLOR]
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2008 - 6:07AM #2
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,156
I apologize if this has already been mentioned here; I have been on Bnet a long time, but haven't come to this board.

Can someone please explain to me how someone can be 'pro-life', but still be for the death penalty and for the war in Iraq (separate topic)?  It would seem to me that if someone values life, they would value it in general and not selectively.  But then I am just a misguided Independent-registered, Democrat-leaning Christian, so I am sure someone with superior intelligence will be along soon to enlighten me.

To me, I understand that murder needs to be punished. I am not saying that it doesn't. But I am saying that other countries have done well without the DP, and actually some are doing a lot better than we are in terms of crime and other social problems. I am sure there are other factors to consider, but the point is that the DP is not essential to an ordered society. I don't see how it really deters people from committing crime, actually. In some cases, it might actually be the more merciful punishment, but that is usually not what the proponents are thinking about. Maybe in the back of their minds, but I have *never* heard this used as a reason for the DP. 

And the idea of an innocent person being put to death is a big problem and even one is far too many.

So, any ideas? I am sure my opinion would change if it were my loved one who were murdered, but as it stands, I don't really see how it is my business to determine who lives and who doesn't.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2008 - 7:39AM #3
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[FONT="Book Antiqua"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]I happen to be Pro-Life, Pro DP, & against the war in Iraq. I happen to in favor of the War in Afghanistan for several reasons. First & Foremost, the Taliban regime was decimated & the Women over there were finally allowed to receive basic things like medical care & an education. They are no longer being murdered for leaving their homes without a male escort. Secondly, we need to search for Bin Laden until either there is real proof that he is dead, or we have captured him.
Now, as for the DP, I do believe that it should be used in some cases. Not every murder warrants the DP. However there are times when it is justified in my opinion. Because you have not been privy to some of our discussions I will highlight my personal reasons.
My best friend was tricked into picking up her 3 young children from her ex husbands house. When she got there, he had the kids lined up in the kitchen. He forced Karen to take an over dose of sleeping pills then, while those babies (ages, 2,3, & 4) watched, he stabbed her 17 times in the chest. He then slit 2yr old Rachel's throat while her brothers watched. He left her to bleed to death & strangle on her own blood while he took the boys to the bathroom. When the Police finally got there & broke into the bathroom, that bastard had the knife buried in Aaron's (age 4) neck. Jay  (age 3) was hiding in the bathtub. Aaron did survive & later testified against his father. There was never a question as to guilt in this case. It is cases like this one that I believe the DP should be applied. Jerry Allard (The ex husband & father to these children) was given the DP. He died of natural causes before he could be executed.
So, I hope that you understand why I have come to the conclusions that I have concerning the DP.
As to Abortion. I believe that a child is murdered every time an abortion is performed. Again, however, I do think that there are reason in which it should be allowed. I just do not believe that it should be used as often as it is now. It should be used only as a last resort & then only if the mother's life is in great danger or the baby cannot survive the birth.
I hope this answers your questions.
[/COLOR][/FONT]
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2008 - 12:55AM #4
Namchuck
Posts: 11,645
How can someone be both pro-life and for the death penalty?
Well, I guess it's being a bit like life itself. In order for something to live, something must die. For instance, think of your last meal, even if one is a vegetarian.

There are certain crimes for which the death penalty, despite being abhorrent, is the requisite option.

Unlike bubbysmommy, though, I can't go along with the notion that every abortion represents the murder of a child.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2008 - 4:42PM #5
A_Lite_Touch
Posts: 2
I have had the same difficulty with Pro lifers  Killing the Abortionists or bombing the centers... I asked a Federal govt employee one time (He happened to run an Anti Abortion group) how this type of behavior is justified?
I was told "sometimes you have to do what you have to do"... Sounds to me like justification of misbehavior and someone having a BIG tantrum to get their way.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2008 - 10:00PM #6
PrickliestPear
Posts: 15
"Can someone please explain to me how someone can be 'pro-life', but still be for the death penalty and for the war in Iraq (separate topic)?"

The short answer is, "by being a hypocrite."

The term "pro-life" is, popularly speaking, a euphemism for being opposed to abortion rights.  It says little about a person's actual views about life in general since, as you mentioned, a large number of self-identified "pro-life" supporters (at least in the US) are in favour of capital punishment and war. 

Don't bother looking for a rational explanation, because there isn't anything rational about it.

"...other countries have done well without the DP, and actually some are doing a lot better than we are in terms of crime and other social problems."

To put it politely, yes.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2008 - 11:17AM #7
yrgo
Posts: 48
Beautiful_Dreamer:

Can someone please explain to me how someone can be 'pro-life', but still be for the death penalty?


03/28/2008 Journal Entry ("A Prayer For Getting Right With GOD"):

"O Sovereign God,
You are holy
and therefore love
both
JUSTICE and MERCY."


yrgo:

"How," asks sisterly and therefore much appreciated Beautiful_Dreamer, "can someone 'be "pro-life," but still be for the death penalty?'" 

" . . . any ideas?"


One Possibility:

Perhaps "pro-lifers" are caring about both Mercy AND Justice AT THE SAME TIME, just as Christians in Rome were once exhorted to "HATE what is evil" and "CLING TO what is good" AT THE SAME TIME.  (Ro 12.9, Modified NIV)

Is it really so strange, Beautiful_Dreamer, that someone claiming to be "pro-life" would demand mercy and survival for the unborn but not for convicted felons?  I mean, why should even a "pro-lifer" want to keep alive an "ANTI-life-R," an "ANTI-liberty-ER," an "ANTI-others' pursuit of happiness-ER"?  ( : - >

The Apostle Paul, FAVORING MERCY, discouraged "revenge" and repaying "evil for evil," yet also CLEARLY WISHED TO SEE JUSTICE DONE, for he encouraged leaving "room for God's wrath" and even went so far as to say that civil authorities do "not bear the SWORD-the SWORD-the SWORD for nothing" but are "God's . . . agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."  (Ro 12.17,19; 13.4, Modified NIV)


Beautiful_Dreamer:

It would seem to me that if someone values life, they would value it in general and not selectively.


yrgo:

Beautiful_Dreamer, you seem to be expecting CONSISTENCY from people who can't even understand that no creature's life is "sacred" or that the notion of "the sanctity of HUMAN life" is ridiculous!  THE CREATOR, Who, according to Psalm 103.14, "knows how we are formed" and "remembers that we are DUST," calls us as much in Genesis 3.19!  The Bible even says that "God tests" humans "so that they may see that they are like the animals. . . . have the same breath . . . go to the same place . . . come from dust . . . and to dust . . . return."  (Ecc 3.18-20, NIV)  According to the New Testament, the activists' cherished "right to life" actually amounts to little more than an Unsought And Inconvenient Entitlement to become an UNWANTED "mist that appears [in a "cold, cruel world"] for a little while and then vanishes"! (Jas 4.14, NIV) 

B_D, instead of wishing that all positions taken by pro-lifers were consonant with their pro-life stance, let us hope instead that pro-lifers come to understand not only that LOVE, not life, is what is "sacred" to THE ETERNAL, and that WHAT "dust" does to "dust" on "dust" (Isa 40.12,15) is of no consequence whatsoever, while the WHY--the Motive or Motivating Factor(s)--MATTERS TREMENDOUSLY.


(All the best to you!)
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2008 - 2:46PM #8
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[QUOTE=PrickliestPear;393543]"Can someone please explain to me how someone can be 'pro-life', but still be for the death penalty and for the war in Iraq (separate topic)?"

The short answer is, "by being a hypocrite."

The term "pro-life" is, popularly speaking, a euphemism for being opposed to abortion rights.  It says little about a person's actual views about life in general since, as you mentioned, a large number of self-identified "pro-life" supporters (at least in the US) are in favour of capital punishment and war. 

Don't bother looking for a rational explanation, because there isn't anything rational about it.

"...other countries have done well without the DP, and actually some are doing a lot better than we are in terms of crime and other social problems."

To put it politely, yes.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Navy"]Sorry, I take offense to your little Hypocrite quote. I am very much against abortion & equally in favor of the DP. I do not claim to be "Pro Life" in the sense that most are. I do think that there should be allowances made in any abortion law to protect the life of the mother. That however is not what we are discussing. While I would protect an innocent child (born or not) I would be hard pressed to care about what happens to a murderer. [/COLOR]
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2008 - 4:34PM #9
yrgo
Posts: 48
CORRECTION (Post #6): 

. . . to understand not only that LOVE, not life, is what is "sacred" to THE ETERNAL, [INSERT "but also"; DELETE "and"] that WHAT "dust" does to "dust" on "dust" (Isa 40.12,15) is of no consequence . . .
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 11:33AM #10
bristlecone77
Posts: 65
Yrgo,

Who chooses?  Who chooses life versus death?  Who chooses who lives and who dies?  Is this a power you want?  Do you seek to take the scales and the sword and dish out mercy on one hand and justice on the other?  To punish what you call murder, will you take the life of a human being?  Where does it all end?  On one hand, you are saying killing is bad, on the other you are advocating killing people.

If you're going to call yourself pro-life, then consistent you must be.  If not, find a different name because pro-life is nothing but a huge, ugly lie and the ones who bomb abortion clinics are supporters of lies.

Shekah
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