In my opinion, not ALL life should be valued. If you kill someone in cold blood, you place yourself on the level of an animal that kills without regard for life.
Ummmm... to compare human killers to animals and talking about "an animal the kills without regard for life"... is disgusting. Animals don't kill just to be killing, with the exception of a few dogs.
James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
After having read all of the postings to the original question I must say that I'm surprised that there are quite a few personal feelings and very little biblical basis for these opinions. In Exodus 20 the 10 commandments are listed. The most popular of anti-dp folks being thou shall not kill. Yet if you look to Exodus 21, the very next chapter, the proper reasons for the death penalty are outlined. The one that fits here being the planning and carrying out of someone elses demise. As Christians we believe the whole book or none of it, and if it's none of it then they are not Christian.
As for abortion, these children have not asked to be conceived. It was the "parents' unwillingness to take preventive measures. Thus to use abortion as a means of birth control is about as immoral as one can get. Yet I also have to agree that there are instances that an abortion would be understandable. Rape, incest, possible death of mother or fetus, etc. Although I can't find it at the moment I seem to remember a verse from Jesus giving us a command to protect the young and the old, and you don't get much younger than a fetus.
I must admit that I have been unable to follow the different wars, but I still have yet to understand why if we were looking for Ben Ladin how we ended up with Hussein. Oh well, I kind of figure that even if we never catch him he'll be sorely dissapointed to not find his seventy virgins waiting for him, or if they are then they are all male.
I am Pro-Choice because the choice to become a mother is a difficult decision. My biology should not decree that motherhood be an absolute. It is insulting to tell a grown woman facing so painful a choice, that you will only concede if she meets certain criteria. The choice is deeply personal for every woman who undergoes the procedure, and I for one will protect, and honor, her right to do so.
I am Pro- Birth control. Our society should be providing free, safe, and effective birth control methods, for every sexually active woman of childbearing age, who would "choose" waiting on motherhood. Then, the need for abortion would better serve our society, by being used in those emergency situations that you pro- lifers are fond of employing as "your reasons".
I am a meat eater. I am also an animal activist. I eat meat for survival. I advocate for the humane treatment of animals who are raised as a food source. I advocate against circuses, and against entertainment captivity. I advocate for captivity only when our intrusion has de-stabilized an animal population towards extinction. Then, we must intervene, since it is our hand- sending them into the shade.
I recycle, and go green wherever possible.
I am against the war in Iraq, but, for the war in Afghanistan.
I am Pro- Death penalty- I don't want the "bad seeds" living off my tax dollars, and hard work. I don't want them living period. I want the crime of rape to be returned to "Capitol Offense" status and included in the death penalty in all fifty states. ( It is currently only employed in 3 states) Especially for child predators, and for serial rapists. Are society just needs to remove this damaging faction from the planet- permanently.
I advocate for children's and womens rights whenever and where ever I'm needed.
[QUOTE=Beautiful_Dreamer;528654]I can certainly see where you are coming from. I would think for something like this, where there is no question of guilt, there is premeditation involved, more than one person was killed, and a child was killed, then yes I would think the DP is warranted. In my home state, NC, I believe this is the law. This would certainly not be a case of an innocent person being put to death.
On one hand, I believe in redemption and mercy. This comes from Jesus-this is not to say that justice should not be done, but I wonder if there are other ways to do justice. I don't see the DP as a deterrent either. But on the other hand, I am sure I would feel differently if it were my friend or family member murdered. So this question is largely academic for me. I really hope that I haven't offended anyone.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Teal"]You have certainly not offended me. I too agree that this is the rare case when the DP is justified. This is what I have been trying to say all along. That I am in favor of the DP in these types of cases. I just don't like to relate this story every time. It is a tough thing for me even now. I fear that the DP is currently being used too often. There are entirely too many people sitting on death row whose guilt is not so clear. These cases need to be reviewed over & over again until either this person is proven absolutely guilty or not. If there is even the slightest hint that this person is not guilty, the DP should be removed from the table.[/COLOR]
"Can someone please explain to me how someone can be 'pro-life', but still be for the death penalty and for the war in Iraq (separate topic)?"
The short answer is, "by being a hypocrite."
The term "pro-life" is, popularly speaking, a euphemism for being opposed to abortion rights. It says little about a person's actual views about life in general since, as you mentioned, a large number of self-identified "pro-life" supporters (at least in the US) are in favour of capital punishment and war.
Don't bother looking for a rational explanation, because there isn't anything rational about it.
"...other countries have done well without the DP, and actually some are doing a lot better than we are in terms of crime and other social problems."
To put it politely, yes.
To be fair, though, I don't claim that there aren't other factors involved. There are many. It is just that I think it might be a good thing for the government to look at other countries and take advice from ones that are doing well in areas we are not, or who have found a better way. This statement is considered unpatriotic at best and blasphemous at worst in some places around here (South).
I happen to be Pro-Life, Pro DP, & against the war in Iraq. I happen to in favor of the War in Afghanistan for several reasons. First & Foremost, the Taliban regime was decimated & the Women over there were finally allowed to receive basic things like medical care & an education. They are no longer being murdered for leaving their homes without a male escort. Secondly, we need to search for Bin Laden until either there is real proof that he is dead, or we have captured him. Now, as for the DP, I do believe that it should be used in some cases. Not every murder warrants the DP. However there are times when it is justified in my opinion. Because you have not been privy to some of our discussions I will highlight my personal reasons. My best friend was tricked into picking up her 3 young children from her ex husbands house. When she got there, he had the kids lined up in the kitchen. He forced Karen to take an over dose of sleeping pills then, while those babies (ages, 2,3, & 4) watched, he stabbed her 17 times in the chest. He then slit 2yr old Rachel's throat while her brothers watched. He left her to bleed to death & strangle on her own blood while he took the boys to the bathroom. When the Police finally got there & broke into the bathroom, that bastard had the knife buried in Aaron's (age 4) neck. Jay (age 3) was hiding in the bathtub. Aaron did survive & later testified against his father. There was never a question as to guilt in this case. It is cases like this one that I believe the DP should be applied. Jerry Allard (The ex husband & father to these children) was given the DP. He died of natural causes before he could be executed. So, I hope that you understand why I have come to the conclusions that I have concerning the DP.
I can certainly see where you are coming from. I would think for something like this, where there is no question of guilt, there is premeditation involved, more than one person was killed, and a child was killed, then yes I would think the DP is warranted. In my home state, NC, I believe this is the law. This would certainly not be a case of an innocent person being put to death.
On one hand, I believe in redemption and mercy. This comes from Jesus-this is not to say that justice should not be done, but I wonder if there are other ways to do justice. I don't see the DP as a deterrent either. But on the other hand, I am sure I would feel differently if it were my friend or family member murdered. So this question is largely academic for me. I really hope that I haven't offended anyone.
Gandalf -
I think you make a good point here. But I would expand that to include the thinking that some lives are more important or more valuable than others.
People who are against abortion must feel that the life of a zygote, embryo, or fetus is equal to - or even more important then - the life of a grown woman.
And it would be fair to say that many American people have no doubt at all that the life of the average U.S. serviceman or servicewoman is far more valuable than the life of the average Iraqi citizen. After all, the nightly news often carries stories about U.S. soldiers killed in the line of duty, with reporters visiting the grieving families of such men and women. And every few days, there is an updating of the number of U.S. dead.
But how many stories about Iraqi civilians killed do we see on CNN? For that matter, what, exactly, IS the number of people who ended up as collateral damage in that miserable country? Does anybody outside of Iraq even care?
Most Americans doubtless felt the same way about the Vietnamese people who were killed during that ill-advised war.
The lives of celebrities and influential people are generally thought of as more valuable than those of us poor peons, aren't they? Who was this Anna Nicole Smith, for example, that she should have had such an enormous amount of media attention when she took a drug overdose and died? Or Heath Ledger, for that matter?
By the same token, the lives of people who contribute to society, like scientists who find cures for disease, or popular presidents, are disproportionately valued. Someone like Ronnie Reagan, a man of mediocre abilities who presided over a mediocre and scandal-ridden presidencey is, nevertheless, accorded the honour of having an airport named after him simply by virtue of the fact that he was a popular president!
Many Catholics doubtless feel that the Pope's life is infinitely more important than that of the average person on the street.
And, of course, there are the lives of nonhumans, which count for virtually nothing except as pets or because they are deemed suitable to do jobs for humans.
Who gives a thought to ending the life of a fish, for example? And who cares if chickens or pigs live and die in misery and squalor?
I apologize if this has already been mentioned here; I have been on Bnet a long time, but haven't come to this board.
Can someone please explain to me how someone can be 'pro-life', but still be for the death penalty and for the war in Iraq (separate topic)? --snipped-- And the idea of an innocent person being put to death is a big problem and even one is far too many.
I see that same type of question come up alot. Such as in the animal welfare forum. And even the marriage relationships forum.
The disagreement seems to stem from those who consider their actions based on the "good of the many" vs those who feel that good should be more widely applied even down to the "good of the one". It would be nice if the good of each individual would correspond to the good of the many but you will find that not everyone believes that.
It sounds as if you are questioning the "good of the many" crowd for supporting pro-life abortion which would appear to be a "good of the one" choice? I would say that they have not found a "good of the many" reason to change their position on that one item.
