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Switch to Forum Live View Defining PL/PC "Moderate/s"
6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 5:56AM #1
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
any overlap?  talking points?

have PL/PC outworn their usefulness as labels?

Is there a new term for the majority?  Abortion moderates?  Pro choife?  (choice + life) 
Pro Lice?   (Life + choice) 
um, scratch that...:P
:rolleyes:

Is there a majority opinion or equal polarity?  Who is/are the minority/ies?

is there agreement about social issues such as solving economic issues/reducing poverty helping reduce abortions?

some PL are pro bc, others are not?  All PC are pro bc?  "PLbc" "PLao purist" "PCbc" "PCao"  (ao - abstinence only) "PCfoca"  "PLnofoca"  "PLBB"  (PL Bible Based)  Ahm in dah PLBB club...

what does the continuum look like...and where do you see yourself/others on it?

etc.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 7:49AM #2
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
i saw the terms "consistent PL" and "selective PL" in an article...
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 7:53AM #3
RiverMoonlady
Posts: 773
I consider myself to be a moderate PC, meaning that I believe that abortion should be legal early in the pregnancy, but not allowed after viablity except to save the life of the mother or to remove a fatally deformed fetus.  There should also be limitations on second-trimester abortions.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 9:22AM #4
becca97
Posts: 2,562
i think any absolout elabel will not 100% be accurate for everybody, but i foten see on this issue i have more in common with a moderate PLers such as BM than i do with a hardline PCer (such as skywalker) who really does wish to push abortion on women as the best choice.

so i'm a moderate PCers because imho it is the label which best fits my moral view of this issue.

i am however 100% against criminalising abortions and in enacting too many restrictions on abortions, making very late term abortions legal only for health issues with mother and/or unborn is fair enough anythign other than that is imho a slippery slope nor does it particularly aid reducing abortion rates.

other moderate PCers feel a little differently i'm sure, but the key term is moderate, moderates are usually able ot find the middle way, compromise and reach a course of action that causes the least harm possible to everyone concerned.

imho.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 10:06AM #5
lAuR1987
Posts: 174
"Pro lice" made me laugh LOL.

I'm pro choice and support abstience/bc comprehensive sex education. I support all choices for women be that abortion or carrying a fetus to term. I support full disclosure of information regarding all choices be that abortion, adoption, etc. And I support social support be that fighting for mandatory maternity care, free childcare at colleges, and sliding fee scale on abortions,etc.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 11:27AM #6
Cesmom
Posts: 4,594
[QUOTE=lAuR1987;971893]"Pro lice" made me laugh LOL.

I'm pro choice and support abstience/bc comprehensive sex education. I support all choices for women be that abortion or carrying a fetus to term. I support full disclosure of information regarding all choices be that abortion, adoption, etc. And I support social support be that fighting for mandatory maternity care, free childcare at colleges, and sliding fee scale on abortions,etc.[/QUOTE]

I agree with all of this.  I think a big difference between 'moderates' and 'extremists' is that 'moderates' are willing to look at the big picture and truly listen to what others have to say, while 'extremists' are so focussed on their own agenda that they refuse to listen to any ideas that they believe could be a covert attempt to push the other side's agenda.

For example, those who are PL but refuse to acknowledge that improved education/access to birth control would be a huge step in the right direction are what I consider to be extreme because they are focussing on the problem without acknowledging any realistic solution.  Other PL extremists are those who carry graphic signs harrassing women outside clinics.  Those who refuse to acknowledge that there would ever be ANY justification for aboriton, even in the case of rape or life threatening circumstances are definitely extremists. 

Those who are extreme PC are usually unwilling to accept any type of 'outreach' to pregnant women for fear that it will be pushing the PL agenda and trying to pressure women into a specific desired choice.  Other PC extreme are those who, when discussing the topic, refuse to apply any value to the life of the fetus for fear that they may lose ground in their argument that the woman should have the final say.  They refuse to acknowledge that there may be ANY abuse going on regarding second and third trimester abortions being performed for anything other than necessity of health.  They refuse to acknowledge that ANY regulations should be attached to abortion whatsoever.

I think outreach can be a good thing if it's reaching out to women saying, we have resources to help you if you're thinking about adoption or parenting and we will support you along the way by doing XYZ.  I think outreach can be a bad thing when it's presented as - don't choose abortion because it's wrong and you should do as we say. 

I know it's an emotional topic that people feel strongly about, but I do believe there is a lot of middle ground that could be reached.  The funny thing is, most 'extremists' are so defensive of their ways in response to the actions of the 'extremists' from the others side, so it's not like it's not understandable...it's just a vicious cycle that may never end.
Our need to learn should always outweigh our need to be right

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

More people would learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 2:50PM #7
Ashe
Posts: 311
[QUOTE=etsryan;971692]any overlap?  talking points?

have PL/PC outworn their usefulness as labels?

[/QUOTE]

I think PC/PL are terrible labels, using them implies that the other side is against choice/against life respectively which is not an accurate assumption.  It's not too honorable in my opinion.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2008 - 8:35PM #8
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[QUOTE=CESMom;971991]I agree with all of this.  I think a big difference between 'moderates' and 'extremists' is that 'moderates' are willing to look at the big picture and truly listen to what others have to say, while 'extremists' are so focussed on their own agenda that they refuse to listen to any ideas that they believe could be a covert attempt to push the other side's agenda.

For example, those who are PL but refuse to acknowledge that improved education/access to birth control would be a huge step in the right direction are what I consider to be extreme because they are focussing on the problem without acknowledging any realistic solution.  Other PL extremists are those who carry graphic signs harrassing women outside clinics.  Those who refuse to acknowledge that there would ever be ANY justification for aboriton, even in the case of rape or life threatening circumstances are definitely extremists. 

Those who are extreme PC are usually unwilling to accept any type of 'outreach' to pregnant women for fear that it will be pushing the PL agenda and trying to pressure women into a specific desired choice.  Other PC extreme are those who, when discussing the topic, refuse to apply any value to the life of the fetus for fear that they may lose ground in their argument that the woman should have the final say.  They refuse to acknowledge that there may be ANY abuse going on regarding second and third trimester abortions being performed for anything other than necessity of health.  They refuse to acknowledge that ANY regulations should be attached to abortion whatsoever.

I think outreach can be a good thing if it's reaching out to women saying, we have resources to help you if you're thinking about adoption or parenting and we will support you along the way by doing XYZ.  I think outreach can be a bad thing when it's presented as - don't choose abortion because it's wrong and you should do as we say. 

I know it's an emotional topic that people feel strongly about, but I do believe there is a lot of middle ground that could be reached.  The funny thing is, most 'extremists' are so defensive of their ways in response to the actions of the 'extremists' from the others side, so it's not like it's not understandable...it's just a vicious cycle that may never end.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="SlateGray"][COLOR="Blue"]I can agree with most of what you have said here. I consider myself to be a moderate PL & often take crap from my fellow PL members for my views. I do not believe that all abortion should be illegal, but I also do not think that it should be so commonplace as we see it today.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2008 - 8:35PM #9
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[QUOTE=CESMom;971991]I agree with all of this.  I think a big difference between 'moderates' and 'extremists' is that 'moderates' are willing to look at the big picture and truly listen to what others have to say, while 'extremists' are so focussed on their own agenda that they refuse to listen to any ideas that they believe could be a covert attempt to push the other side's agenda.

For example, those who are PL but refuse to acknowledge that improved education/access to birth control would be a huge step in the right direction are what I consider to be extreme because they are focussing on the problem without acknowledging any realistic solution.  Other PL extremists are those who carry graphic signs harrassing women outside clinics.  Those who refuse to acknowledge that there would ever be ANY justification for aboriton, even in the case of rape or life threatening circumstances are definitely extremists. 

Those who are extreme PC are usually unwilling to accept any type of 'outreach' to pregnant women for fear that it will be pushing the PL agenda and trying to pressure women into a specific desired choice.  Other PC extreme are those who, when discussing the topic, refuse to apply any value to the life of the fetus for fear that they may lose ground in their argument that the woman should have the final say.  They refuse to acknowledge that there may be ANY abuse going on regarding second and third trimester abortions being performed for anything other than necessity of health.  They refuse to acknowledge that ANY regulations should be attached to abortion whatsoever.

I think outreach can be a good thing if it's reaching out to women saying, we have resources to help you if you're thinking about adoption or parenting and we will support you along the way by doing XYZ.  I think outreach can be a bad thing when it's presented as - don't choose abortion because it's wrong and you should do as we say. 

I know it's an emotional topic that people feel strongly about, but I do believe there is a lot of middle ground that could be reached.  The funny thing is, most 'extremists' are so defensive of their ways in response to the actions of the 'extremists' from the others side, so it's not like it's not understandable...it's just a vicious cycle that may never end.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="SlateGray"][COLOR="Blue"]I can agree with most of what you have said here. I consider myself to be a moderate PL & often take crap from my fellow PL members for my views. I do not believe that all abortion should be illegal, but I also do not think that it should be so commonplace as we see it today.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2008 - 12:38AM #10
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
can i tailor my message to my audience?  can i be mod PL around PCers and extreme PL around other extreme PL? 

would i be flip flopping/two faced if i did that?  publicly moderate, privately extreme?

hmm.

Shall I write a pamphlet:  "Why yelling and name-calling outside abortion clinics is not productive/how to get personal and use kindness to win converts and influence folks"?

oh, i think it has already been done:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win … nce_People

excerpt:

Fundamental Techniques in Handling People

    * Don't criticize, condemn or complain.
    * Give honest and sincere appreciation.
    * Arouse in the other person an eager want.

Six Ways to Make People Like You

   1. Become genuinely interested in other people.
   2. Smile.
   3. Remember that a [person's] Name is to [them] the sweetest and most important sound in any language.
   4. Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves.
   5. Talk in the terms of the other [person]'s interest.
   6. Make the other person feel important and do it sincerely.

Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking

   1. Avoid arguments.
   2. Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never tell someone they are wrong.
   3. If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
   4. Begin in a friendly way.
   5. Start with questions the other person will answer yes to.
   6. Let the other person do the talking.
   7. Let the other person feel the idea is his/hers.
   8. Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
   9. Sympathize with the other person.
  10. Appeal to noble motives.
  11. Dramatize your ideas.
  12. Throw down a challenge.

Be a Leader: How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment

   1. Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
   2. Call attention to other people's mistakes indirectly.
   3. Talk about your own mistakes first.
   4. Ask questions instead of giving direct orders.
   5. Let the other person save face.
   6. Praise every improvement.
   7. Give them a fine reputation to live up to.
   8. Encourage them by making their faults seem easy to correct.
   9. Make the other person happy about doing what you suggest.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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