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Switch to Forum Live View Abortifacient Oral Contraceptives
5 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2008 - 12:02AM #1
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
http://www.epm.org/media-files/pdf/bcpill.pdf

I am in the process of perusing this myself and will post comments/excerpts.  Several medical professional endorsements are included.  First published in 1997, current version 2007
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2008 - 1:14AM #2
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
p.s.  The author invites feedback on the website and promises to correct any information proven false - especially if evidence is from primary sources - in future additions.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2008 - 1:21AM #3
Marysara722
Posts: 2,548

etsryan wrote:

http://www.epm.org/media-files/pdf/bcpill.pdf

I am in the process of perusing this myself and will post comments/excerpts. Several medical professional endorsements are included. First published in 1997, current version 2007



Randy Alcorn EtSue?

Really come on now, surely you can do better than that.

The dude is not even a medical expert.

Please, at least try to provide a non-bias something, anything from a legit
medical source-- but NOT a piece of diatribe by Alcorn.

:rolleyes:

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2008 - 2:44AM #4
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
so the endorsements from the medical pros who have reviewed his work mean nothing MS?

I don't know Randy A from a hill of beans.  I am reading this link for the first time myself believe it or not.

an eleven year old document that has been revised eight times is not professional or unbiased enough?  I believe many intelligent and capable people do not have PhD, M.D., OB/GYN or even B.S. or B.A. after their names.  Someone who takes the time to research and document and revise isn't a slouch to me.

Got some feedback about the people who have endorsed this work, MarySara?

Even if this evidence is factual and proves oral contraceptives are abortifacient - as the Roman Catholic church has insisted for years BTW, that doesn't mean that women won't be able to use them since they are legally available and if there is demand will probably continue to be.  Perhaps a non abortifacient oral contraceptive will be developed or a male pill...  not that i am endorsing those.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2008 - 4:23AM #5
becca97
Posts: 2,562
:rolleyes: i noticed a few of the 'endorsments' are from xtians .... not precicly 'unbiased' ---- and as i beleive BM asked you on another thread - are you seriously arguing AGAINST BC? If so HOW if at all do you feel this will help reduce 'direct abortions'?

bx
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2008 - 5:02AM #6
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
I and others have a problem with oral contraceptive actually being abortions themselves,  Newer technology may allow better research into how many implantation interferences are happening when using oc.  By claiming religious folks with bias cannot know scientific facts/truths, I feel you and others are discriminating/entertaining prejudice.  I would think you and others would like to know the truth about bc/oc and the abortifacient qualities and frequencies so even if you continue to use these products, it will be with accurate information rather than guesswork.  Also, if bc/oc is abortifacient and is proven to be, you and others can make up your mind/s if you wish to continue using bc/oc and have full info to go on...unless you/others prefer to stay/be ignorant?  I suppose smokers don't really like hearing about lung damage from tobacco and other smoked substances, but i believe they have a right to know since the info is pertinent to them/their health.  Whether or not they/you listen to what I and others are saying, trying to give evidence of/prove is another matter.  Are you listening?  Are you willing to listen/hear?  Can I tell you the whole story?  Do you think you can handle it/the Truth?  (I am asking myself this as well.)  Do you think some of it might break your heart/be upsetting?  Do I?  I think it might.  I am bracing myself as I get up the courage to face more of the facts that may be hidden - some intentionally...

by the way, the term xtians is somewhat offensive and possibly bigoted/against ROC?...to me.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2008 - 12:09PM #7
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,741
I have addressed this topic on threads here in the past. I have found no scientific studies that can conclusively show that birth control pills, in and of themselves, prevent implantation. BCP makers try to make their users feel more confident about the efficacy of the hormonal contraception by citing research showing that the pills alter the endometrium (lining of the uterus). Other studies suggest that implantation is more difficult if the endometrial lining is thinner. But NO studies show that BCPs prevent implantation. The failure rate of BCPs argue against this effect. Women do get pregnant while on the pill, so obviously their embryos were able to implant.

Another problem with these claims is the 50-70% of embryos fail to implant in women who are NOT on BCPs. With such a high rate of implantation failure that is simply natural, it would be extremely difficult to ever show that BCPs cause failure to implant.

So I think that claims that BCPs are abortifacient are based on very shaky science.

This article, found on the website of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists, goes into the claim that BCPs are abortifacient more extensively. They conclude

An extensive review of pertinent scientific writings indicates that there is no credible evidence to validate a mechanism of pre-implantation abortion as a part of the action of hormone contraceptives. On the contrary, the existing evidence indicates that "on pill" conceptions are handled by the reproductive system with the same results seen with "off pill" conceptions, with the exception of increased ectopic rates seen with POPs and Norplant.

Source: http://www.aaplog.org/decook.htm



Normally I wouldn't cite a source like the one above (which lists the authors as "four Christian ProLife Obstericians/Gynecologists"), but it does agree with other things I've read, I'm pressed for time, and etsryan is PL, so perhaps she will appreciate this view from PL physicians.

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2008 - 1:16PM #8
mountain_man
Posts: 38,037
[QUOTE=etsryan;962065]so the endorsements from the medical pros who have reviewed his work mean nothing MS?


They are meaningless.

I don't know Randy A from a hill of beans...


You should if you are going to use him as a source.

an eleven year old document that has been revised eight times is not professional or unbiased enough? ....


No, Have it published in a peer reviewed medical journal and then it will be professional and unbiased enough.

Even if this evidence is factual and proves oral contraceptives are abortifacient


So what if they are?

as the Roman Catholic church has insisted for years....[/QUOTE]
I could not care less what any church has to say about any issue. What others do is none of their business.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2008 - 1:19PM #9
mountain_man
Posts: 38,037
[QUOTE=etsryan;962141]I and others have a problem with oral contraceptive actually being abortions themselves, ....


Fine. Then don't take them. What others do is none of your business.

by the way, the term xtians is somewhat offensive and possibly bigoted/against ROC?...to me.[/QUOTE]
You won't have any luck with that. "Xtians" has been in use for centuries. It's an abbreviation, and is in now way, by any reasonable person, considered to be insulting.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2008 - 1:44PM #10
RiverMoonlady
Posts: 773
Randy Alcorn is a pastor, writer of Christian books and head of a ministry.  His degree is in Bible and he has no scientific training that would enable him to write knowledgeably about birth control pills or any other medical issues.
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