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6 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2008 - 9:49PM #41
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=newsjunkie;973737]Sure private donations can help. What I'm saying is that those private donations don't come anywhere near what is actually needed. I hope people give more -- 'tis the season right now.



Yes, I look it that way also. I often find my own protesting to be rather pointless.[/QUOTE]

I prefer to think of some of the rallies as public demonstrations.  I believe they raise awareness and build comaraderie/help facilitate networking.  However, 'protest' without processing is lame to me.  Like it is said:  faith without works is dead.  Protest/demonstration/s without followup (such as working through channels, changing oppressive systems with votes, funds, time/effort) is lipservice to me.

I am surprised more haven't heard of "sidewalk" counselors as they are called since they are only allowed to be on public property or they get threatened with arrest.  (so helpful...NOT)  Even though speaking and distributing literature are constitutionally protected activities.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2008 - 9:56PM #42
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=newsjunkie;973753]I find that a lot of PL materials, and also materials you find in mainstream media, present the unborn in a very unrealistic way. They show pictures of fetuses -- without any indication that they are inside a woman. They do not show any scale on the photographs, or show the size of the fetus relative to the woman it is inside of. To me, this de-personalizes women and creates a false impression that fetuses are independent.  It's as if the woman doesn't exist and only the fetus is deserving of consideration. Many such pictures are of pre-viability fetuses, and I think in those cases it is important to be more realistic and show the fetus in its actual context -- inside a woman. Have you ever thought about those depictions that way?[/QUOTE]

when one is dealing with limited funds/donations, the printing projects are bare minimums.  People can see women.  The fetus is invisible to a certain extent unless you have an ultrasound machine or tiny camera inside someone's womb - which the pictures show at a reduced cost for folks.  PL feels that the baby is being forgotten.  That is why the focus is on the baby in the womb who is in danger of death.  The effort is to try to get people to care more about human life from the moment of conception instead of treating babies inside wombs/either before or after 'viability' as potential trash/cremains/science projects.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2008 - 9:59PM #43
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=CESMom;973809]I do agree.  I think there's a misconception among some PL that there are actually enough resources to go around for these women in need, and there clearly aren't.  Every little bit helps, but until the system is truly changed to better support families, there aren't going to be enough resources available to support all of the women who need it.[/QUOTE]

This PL and others I know have no misconceptions about the fact that priorities are goofed up and resources aren't directed where they are needed most at times.

This PL and others believe we can fix this.  Let's fix this.  'Yesh, we can!'
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2008 - 10:20PM #44
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,744
[QUOTE=etsryan;974963]when one is dealing with limited funds/donations, the printing projects are bare minimums.  People can see women.  The fetus is invisible to a certain extent unless you have an ultrasound machine or tiny camera inside someone's womb - which the pictures show at a reduced cost for folks.  PL feels that the baby is being forgotten.  That is why the focus is on the baby in the womb who is in danger of death.  The effort is to try to get people to care more about human life from the moment of conception instead of treating babies inside wombs/either before or after 'viability' as potential trash/cremains/science projects.[/QUOTE]

The fetus is inside a woman -- that is something that should not be ignored, no matter what the reason. When you ignore the woman, you are denying the reality of the situation and painting a picture of something that doesn't exist in reality. If money is spent on printing a picture, why not print an accurate picture, if one is trying to show the truth of the situation?
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2008 - 10:21PM #45
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
My quote:
Which is why I didn't give other the lady here a hard time when she told me she had a miscarriage and later I heard from someone else that it was actually an abortion.


MM reply:
Yet you harshly judge others, by calling them whores and such, that do not life their life according to your demands.
+++
Dave,

I have stated before and I will state it again since you evidently missed it:  I do not call anyone "whore" or "such"...  Please refrain from slandering/libeling me (which is what I call your statement) again.  Thank you.  If you are referring to some others who call themselves PL, then say so.  I am going by the term "you" which refers to me personally, so I am responding personally.
___________
My Quote:
I am interested in what you/others believe and they/you can tell me if you/they wish to. I say what I believe. I do what I can.


MM reply:
From what I've seen you are only interested in telling us we are wrong. And are you trying to say that you are the only one that says what they believe?
+++
I think many here are wrong about a lot of things, but I understand that people have different ways of looking at things, have been taught different things and have different value systems. 

Of course you/others say what you/they believe, but sometimes you/folks are misconstruing what I/others post and using what is said to put down, demean me/them instead of dealing with issues imhho. 
_________
My Quote:
I hope more folks who don't think the baby in the womb ...


MM reply:
Babies live outside of the womb. We've already covered that topic. I just hope you care more for real, born, people more than a potential human. There are real people out there that need help. When we get them taken care of then we can start dealing with others. Until then I can only support the right of any woman to make their reproductive status decisions in private.
+++
I tried to show you using real dictionary definitions that "baby" is a term for fetus.  I and others believe and use the term "baby" to indicate a human child inside or outside the womb.  If this doesn't fit your definition, that is your business, but I and others aren't necessarily going to buy your definition.

I am trying to care about everyone born and unborn and hope that you and others do the same at the same time.  I think leaving anyone out is being stingy on compassion.  If I don't think a pregnant woman is making the best decision in choosing abortion, that does not mean I do not care about her.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2008 - 10:26PM #46
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,744
[QUOTE=etsryan;974970]This PL and others I know have no misconceptions about the fact that priorities are goofed up and resources aren't directed where they are needed most at times.

This PL and others believe we can fix this.  Let's fix this.  'Yesh, we can!'[/QUOTE]

Giving out diapers, baby clothes and baby clothes is nice, but babies grow out of them. The outreach to pregnant women at the local parish here ends when the baby reaches age 1. There is no special ministry for needy children and their families. This area has many wealthy people and many who are poor as well, but the reality of the situation is that women who are in financial need and their children are given minimal assistance from faith-based organizations around here and are basically encouraged to seek government assistance. I applaud charitable organizations for what they do, but I have to be realistic and say that it's government programs that are the main source of help for poor people. To tell a needy person that private charities are going to take care of them would be misleading.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2008 - 10:28PM #47
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=newsjunkie;974994]The fetus is inside a woman -- that is something that should not be ignored, no matter what the reason. When you ignore the woman, you are denying the reality of the situation and painting a picture of something that doesn't exist in reality. If money is spent on printing a picture, why not print an accurate picture, if one is trying to show the truth of the situation?[/QUOTE]

the woman we give the literature to already knows she is there and that a baby is growing inside her...she has herself to look at and doesn't need a picture of another pregnant woman to show what she already can see for herself. 

If you would like to fund the printing of more pages/larger graphics, let us know...donations are gratefully accepted and I am sure if you would like to earmark some funds for printing and have a say in the design or design and print something for us to use, I am sure that can be arranged.  Limited funds mean having to leave out a lot of things we would like to do.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2008 - 10:36PM #48
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,744
[QUOTE=etsryan;974943]I prefer to think of some of the rallies as public demonstrations.  I believe they raise awareness and build comaraderie/help facilitate networking.  However, 'protest' without processing is lame to me.  Like it is said:  faith without works is dead.  Protest/demonstration/s without followup (such as working through channels, changing oppressive systems with votes, funds, time/effort) is lipservice to me.

I am surprised more haven't heard of "sidewalk" counselors as they are called since they are only allowed to be on public property or they get threatened with arrest.  (so helpful...NOT)  Even though speaking and distributing literature are constitutionally protected activities.[/QUOTE]

Call it a demonstration if you like, that's basically the same as a protest (unless you're demonstrating your support for abortion -- but I take it you are demonstrating in opposition to it, i.e. protesting the practice).

"Sidewalk counseling" seems to me similar to religious evangelizing in which the evangelizers accost people on the street and try to give them "tracts". Or go knocking on doors with invitations to their church. Usually their advances are unwelcome. If I try to push my agenda or opinions on others, chances are they are going to be pushed away, in a direction far from what I had intended.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2008 - 10:40PM #49
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=newsjunkie;975004]Giving out diapers, baby clothes and baby clothes is nice, but babies grow out of them. The outreach to pregnant women at the local parish here ends when the baby reaches age 1. There is no special ministry for needy children and their families. This area has many wealthy people and many who are poor as well, but the reality of the situation is that women and their children are basically shuttled off to government welfare.[/QUOTE]

There are other programs that are available to people with growing children.  One that comes to mind is Seton Family Services around here.

Have you tried being a poor single person lately?  'Welfare' isn't even available at all.  Those government programs aren't so bad when you don't have income so i wouldn't knock them, but if you don't have kids these days a person can usually forget about getting any help due to ridiculous budget cuts.

(I opted not to pop kids out by any guy who offered to jump my bones which there were plenty of...in so doing, i do not qualify for many government programs and find myself scrambling because old fashioned 'general assistance' is no longer available for single folks nor is 'food stamps/support' since if you have received three months worth in the past three years you are disqualified.  Seems to me some young women/people get pregnant on purpose to get government assistance.)
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2008 - 10:50PM #50
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,744
[QUOTE=etsryan;975007]the woman we give the literature to already knows she is there and that a baby is growing inside her...she has herself to look at and doesn't need a picture of another pregnant woman to show what she already can see for herself. 

If you would like to fund the printing of more pages/larger graphics, let us know...donations are gratefully accepted and I am sure if you would like to earmark some funds for printing and have a say in the design or design and print something for us to use, I am sure that can be arranged.  Limited funds mean having to leave out a lot of things we would like to do.[/QUOTE]

I would think you would want to give women the most accurate information possible. Putting a scale on a photograph, or an explanation in a figure caption, will not break anyone's bank. But that's beside the point. If you go back and read my earlier post you can see that I was not talking about just information given to pregnant women -- in my post was talking about pictures in PL material in general and in the mainstream media as well. A few weeks ago I saw a picture of a fetus in a Newsweek article -- no scale, no woman, just a fetus. What I am arguing is that these types of depictions have the potential to create a false impression, and in the process de-emphasize the woman -- in fact, she is invisible in most depictions of the fetus. Do you not see anything wrong with that?
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