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6 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2008 - 2:37AM #61
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
me:
I have stated before and I will state it again since you evidently missed it: I do not call anyone "whore" or "such"...


MM:
You have. A few lines below this one you claim they lack compassion.
+++
Please post the proof of both.  I looked in the post you refer to and don't see either.
______________


me
I think many here are wrong about a lot of things, but I understand that people have different ways of looking at things, have been taught different things and have different value systems.


MM:
Yet your goal is to have your beliefs imposed on others against their will.
+++
I don't believe that is the case at all, Dave.  Are you trying to distort things to make me look bad?  It seems that way to me.  I think it is sad.
___________
me:
Of course you/others say what you/they believe, but sometimes you/folks are misconstruing what I/others post and using what is said to put down, demean me/them instead of dealing with issues imhho.


MM:
Yet you have no problem misconstruing - on purpose - what others say or believe. Why is that?
+++
I think that whole statement is distorted, Dave.
Are you admitting you do it then?  I don't see a denial... only a boomerang attempt to accuse me of what you do?
____________
me:
...I tried to show you using real dictionary definitions that "baby" is a term for fetus...


MM:
and I have shown you how that is wrong.
+++
I don't recall seeing any proof that "baby" is not an officially published and frequently used term for fetus.  If you provided some would you post it again or mention where it is hidden here?
____________
me:
I am trying to care about everyone born and unborn and hope that you and others do the same at the same time.


MM:
You are assuming, or trying to say, that PCs do not care. You are purposely misconstruing the PC position.
+++
I am saying that I don't think many PCs care enough about unborn children.  Yes, I am saying that and I don't believe it is a misconstruction because if PC cared more/enough about unborn children, there wouldn't be so many of them dying from abortion (and more PC would be PL imhho).
_________
me:
I think leaving anyone out is being stingy on compassion.


MM:
Again, you are purposely misconstruing the PC position. I've just showed you two instances of you doing something you have claimed you do not do.
+++
I wasn't stating any PC position, Dave.  I was and am stating my opinion.  I think anyone that doesn't care about children dying before they are born is short on compassion.  I didn't single out PC or any individual for that matter.  I said "anyone".  I think compassion deficit is part of the problem and that is why I am bringing up the subject.  I think some folks care to a degree, but put limits on their caring.  'selective compassion' - i care about this person and that person but not the kid in the womb so much.  I am challenging folks who think little of and demean unborn kids to change their tune to more compassion please.
____________
me:
If I don't think a pregnant woman is making the best decision in choosing abortion, that does not mean I do not care about her.


MM:
It most certainly does. You are implying that YOU know what is best for her and that you care only about the fetus, and not her. You need to respect HER right to make her own decisions that effect her own life. You need to respect her right to privacy.
+++
I don't follow your logic, Dave.  I care about mom and the baby.  I think it is possible to care about both.  I think it is possible to offer assistance to both without excluding either.  I believe she has a right to ask for and receive assistance.  I discourage her wasting her money on unnecessary surgery or medication that may have undesirable side effects.  Yes, I am selling something and I am not ashamed of it.  I am selling help and support and concern.  To me a woman considering abortion isn't getting enough of these.  I don't believe a clinic that charges for abortions is unbiased and can offer the kind of support and concern this woman needs.  Say, why doesn't PP do free abortions if that is such a wonderful necessary procedure?  If PP and others stomp for free bc/oc, then abortion should be free too, shouldn't it, if that is the woman's choice...  seems like some hypocrisy going on.  Some choices are free but others aren't.   hmm.  why?  could it be because of the $$$ involved??  do i detect a conflict of interest?  hmm.  if choice is so important, why not provide all the services free?  many other procedures are, right?  why not that one? 

this is one of the reasons a source not connected to the abortion clinic/PP is needed to offer alternatives imhho.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2008 - 7:24AM #62
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,744
[QUOTE=etsryan;975142]ah, the grocery store...well for PL, a clinic that does abortions/PP is 'the grocery store' - where potential 'customers' will be walking by...

asking someone if they need help with a pregnancy isn't super personal and since (as many have pointed out) some women are going to the clinic for some other reason, that is why asking whether the person needs or wants help with pregnancy keeps mammogram customers from being handed pregnancy support resources literature.

sounds to me as though you haven't had to make a living doing sales before...otherwise you might be more amenable to being approached if you have walked a mile in the shoes of one doing the approaching...[/QUOTE]

Actually, I did work in sales, briefly, during graduate school in order to make ends meet after my regular funding ran out. Plus I went to Catholic elementary school. They had us out hawking junk door-to-door before Christmastime to make money. I wasn't born yesterday; I've had a variety of experiences in life. I am grateful for the lessons experience teaches.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2008 - 7:28AM #63
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,744
[QUOTE=etsryan;975163]many of the photos/images used are copyrighted and many have been done by medical photographers and only the image of the fetus is available because a camera inside the womb was used.   [/quote]

This does not preculde your organization from providing information about the scale of the photograph in a caption accompanying the photograph.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2008 - 7:31AM #64
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,744
[QUOTE=etsryan;975292]The woman is shown in the pictures of the baby in the womb...since the womb is her.  We are seeing her insides, instead of her outsides.  There are pictures of women who have chosen to give birth to their babies who are sometimes featured.  Because when PL is talking to women considering abortion outside abortion clinics, the literature is for her.  She has herself to look at for an example and people with brains know babies in wombs are inside a woman unless they are being nurtured by a man like that 'pregnant man' was for a while since his wife cannot have kids herself for some reason. 

Photos of fetuses showing hands and feet and heart and eyes helps people understand the humanity of the baby in the womb.  People - at least most people - understand the humanity of an adult or teenage female I believe.  No photos necessary imhho.  Also, the woman would have to give permission for her image to be used in the brochures and some kind of talent fee might have to be paid and there's more fees that would be needed.

Do you hate pictures of babies inside their mothers' wombs?[/QUOTE]

At least twice I explained my objections to the fetus pictures without either scale or woman, so I see no need to go over it a third time. Your last question here suggests to me that you either haven't read my posts carefully, or you don't think such depictions depersonalize the woman carrying the fetus or minimize her importance or don’t care if it does. Whatever the reason, fine; I'm not interested in quarreling back and forth. Have a great day, etsryan, it's Christmas Eve. I'm up early to get last-minute shopping done. May the peace of this season be with you :)
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2008 - 8:59AM #65
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=newsjunkie;975428]At least twice I explained my objections to the fetus pictures without either scale or woman, so I see no need to go over it a third time. Your last question here suggests to me that you either haven't read my posts carefully, or you don't think such depictions depersonalize the woman carrying the fetus or minimize her importance or don’t care if it does. Whatever the reason, fine; I'm not interested in quarreling back and forth. Have a great day, etsryan, it's Christmas Eve. I'm up early to get last-minute shopping done. May the peace of this season be with you :)[/QUOTE]

Did you see my post 48?  I had some questions for you in there about how posting a fetal picture 'paints' a 'false impression'?  I would think the opposite is true - that the picture of the fetus is worth a thousand words and then some.

I don't think pictures of fetuses depersonalize women or minimize their importance and I do care, but I guess I don't see how pictures of unborn babies take away from a woman at all.  I am so used to valuing both at the same time.  I believe I saw your objection once before, but not so much why a picture of a fetus or a fetal model would take anything from an adult female's standing/status.  Especially if I am there as a living human model of a female and so is the woman I am talking to.   

Maybe I missed one of your posts...it is possible there are quite a few on the board.

I believe some of the pictures have a dime or a hand next to the baby for size comparison and some images are life size at ___ weeks...

Are you saying if folks see how much bigger a woman is that they will care less about a tiny preborn human? 

Glad you are able to go shopping.

I am being blessed with manger poverty this year, so I will snuggle next to fetus outside the womb Jesus in some hay/equivalent.  I am trying to save enough gas to visit relatives and make it back.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2008 - 9:14AM #66
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=newsjunkie;975425]Actually, I did work in sales, briefly, during graduate school in order to make ends meet after my regular funding ran out. Plus I went to Catholic elementary school. They had us out hawking junk door-to-door before Christmastime to make money. I wasn't born yesterday; I've had a variety of experiences in life. I am grateful for the lessons experience teaches.[/QUOTE]

I would think if you have done sales, that you can relate to cold calling, approaching people, trying to get a minute of time, a listening ear for a bit...having a pitch to recite, a product or sevice to discuss, a (potential) client's needs to assess.  This is often what offering prolife pregnancy/family support services is like to me.

So what kind of 'junk' did you 'hawk' for school?  anything like chocolate bars and such like kids do today?
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2008 - 9:16AM #67
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=newsjunkie;975427]This does not preculde your organization from providing information about the scale of the photograph in a caption accompanying the photograph.[/QUOTE]

i believe an object like a dime or ring is sometimes placed next to fetal remains and a caption about how far along a living fetus is for a 'life-sized' image.  Fetal models have the number of weeks on them, too, I believe.  The size is apparent.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2008 - 12:43PM #68
RiverMoonlady
Posts: 773
[QUOTE=etsryan;974932]i am talking about the babies that die from abortion...not the ones that live.  i was comparing the unborn babies' deaths with women's choices.  not unborn to born babies.  when a woman chooses abortion, her baby dies.  that is the losing end i am talking about.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Sue, but far more women CHOOSE to give birth rather than to abort.  That in itself is meaningful.  I realize that you want ALL of the unborn to go on to be born, but sometimes nature interferes (via miscarriage, fetal demise or stillbirth) and sometimes women do make the choice to abort.

But by and large, MOST babies are born because that is the choice their mothers have made for them.
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